D&D 3.x Creature Catalog 3.5 overhaul project - part 1

BOZ · Jul 31, 2003

how about, when we get to that, if you guys calculate your different numbers, and we compare and decide which one is best?

las · Jul 31, 2003

Since I to have SS (even then numbers do come out a little differnt). So we can do a big ecl/la calc when its time.

Krishnath · Jul 31, 2003

las: The numbers don't come out different if you follow the instructions

Conaill · Jul 31, 2003

Krishnath said:
Trust me, the Savage Species way to calculate LA, is much easier to use and give a more accurate result than Soladrin's ECL calculator.

I don't own SS myself, but from borrowing my DM's copy, I didn't get the impression that SS had any "accurate" method to calculate LA at all! It has *guidelines* mainly, but is lacking a lot of concrete formulas.

For example, SS recommends adding a LA for "unbalanced ability scores", but AFAIK it doesn't actually give you a formula to calculate how much the LA for unbalanced ability scores should be. Let's say a creature has a +8 to STR, and +6 to DEX and CON. How much should the LA be for these stats? Soldarin's calculator suggests a +2 LA (STR DEX and CON are worth .1 each; INT, WIS and CHA are worth .05 each).

AFAIK, SS also doesn't suggest Level Adjustments for weaknesses the creatures posess. For example, most animals have no hands and cannot use most types of equipment (unless they're specially adapted for them, like barding). In Soldarin's calculator those count as Medium weaknesses, worth a discount to LA of -0.5.

Savage Species may be the "bible" of assigning Level Adjustments for 3.5, but it requires a lot more judgement calls to apply. Soldarin's calculator is a lot more detailed, but probably needs adjusting for 3.5.

Krishnath · Jul 31, 2003

Conaill: Well, that depends on the creatures other attributes, but usually a simple +2 to LA should suffice. Take for example the Frost Giant, the abilities only acount for +2 of the creatures total LA, it's reach and natural armor acounting for the rest. Should I use Soladrin's calculator, the Frost Giants total ECL would wind up past the ECL 20 mark, and let's face it, the Frost Giant ain't that powerful.

Conaill · Jul 31, 2003

Krishnath said:
Should I use Soladrin's calculator, the Frost Giants total ECL would wind up past the ECL 20 mark

Nope, just tried it... Soldarin's ECL Calculator would indicate +3 for the stats alone, +1.8 for the Natural Armor, and another +1 for Size/Reach. However, since it only counts 0.5 per HD against ECL for Giants, it winds up with and ECL of 13.2 for Frost Giant, rounded up to its HD of 14, or a total LA of +0.

Now, Soldarin's calculator stems from a period where assigning ECLs was very much a black art, published ECLs were still being adjusted, and nobody outside of WotC had heard of Level Adjustment yet. It does fit the vast majority of published 3.0 ECLs, but it has some significant differences from 3.5. For example, Soldarin adds +1 to ECL per size category greater than medium or smaller than small, but only adds an adjustment for reach if it's greater or smaller than usual for the size category. In 3.5, size does not affect LA but reach does. The effect is similar because reach goes up with size, but the end result may be a bit off for specific creatures.

Soldarin's still provides a lot more detailed formula for calculating ECL/LA. It's just that some of the details are wrong for 3.5.

The ideal situation would be to come up with a Soldarin-like calculator for 3.5 which incorporates the SS guidelines and matches the existing 3.5 MM ECLs. Sounds like an excellent project for the Creature Catalog community to tackle *before* you start assigning LAs to all the converted creatures...

Knight Otu · Aug 1, 2003

Indeed.

Soldarin's numbers are generally lower than the official ones, even after the acid test mentioned in SavSpe. (You could say the numbers are already acid tested.

Krishnath · Aug 1, 2003

Conaill: My mistake.

Anyways, I would not consider any giant balanced as a PC with a ECL equal to it's HD.

As far as I am conserned the LA guidelines in SS are the most balanced, so far... (Waiting patiently for Soladrin to make a new version for 3.5

)

Conaill · Aug 1, 2003

Krishnath - or anyone else for that matter - could you give us an overview of the salient features of the SS guidelines? Or at least how they differ from the formulas Soldarin came up with? It may not be all that hard to adjust the weights he uses.

Let's see what I remember from the SS system off the top of my head:

- no formula to calculate LA for unbalanced ability scores - that's probably the area where the calculator can help most

- no LA for size, but LA for reach instead

- +1 per 5 natural armor, minimum 1 (that probably needs adjusting, there's no way a +1 natural armor is worth +1 LA)

- HD count 1-for-1 towards ECL. We may want to adjust that up or down 10% to account for creature type strengths and weaknesses

- Special powers: I believe most of those were listed as to whether they would cause a LA or not. I like the calculator's fractional LA better.

- Special weaknesses: I don't think SS has any of those listed. Could be wrong though. It's been a few weeks since I read it.

Of course, all of this will need to be checked against some existing 3.5 monster LA's. Some of the simpler monsters like Ogres, Bugbears, Ginat Eagle, Ettin, etc. should be sufficient to nail most of it down. I definitely think we can do better than SS's "overestimate and then playtest" approach.