Creature Rank vs SOD effects

[Dausuul]

Lord god, why don't you want 5e to explicitly tell the DM what role the monsters have in a fight? Do you actually want new DMs to suffer, make lousy games, and quit?

5E can slap whatever labels on the monsters it likes. I'm all for providing helpful hints to novice DMs, and even experienced ones.

But what's under discussion here is having those labels affect the mechanics. And that's a problem for me. I want to be able to take the same troll and use it as a solo versus a 1st-level party, an elite versus a 5th-level party, and a regular monster versus a 9th-level party, without needing three different statblocks. It vastly increases the utility of the monster, and improves mechanical consistency so that the party which tackled a single troll at 1st level can anticipate what it will be like to tackle five of them at 9th.

I realize that achieving this while maintaining 4E's balance and tactical depth is a significant challenge, and it will probably require some form of "level threshold" or "hit point threshold" mechanic. But I think it's a worthy undertaking.

 

[avin]

DMs have been able to figure out what monsters to use for over a third of a century.

Not really.
Not true.
Certainly not before some use.

I've used creatures on 3E that were obviously far more powerful than their CR pointed out. Unless we are talking about a version of the game we have been using for over a third of a century, which is not the case.

Printing a word such as SOLO in a monster sheet, that will never appear in game, helps DMs to figure out a new monster or how it works in a new edition.

It helps new DMs. It helps veteran DMs using it for the first time.

 

[tlantl]

Not really.
Not true.
Certainly not before some use.

I've used creatures in 3E that were obviously far more powerful than their CR pointed out. Unless we are talking about a version of the game we have been using for over a third of a century, which is not the case.

Printing a word such as SOLO in a monster sheet, that will never appear in game, helps DMs to figure out a new monster or how it works in a new edition.

It helps new DMs. It helps veteran DMs using it for the first time.

But not necessary.

And I'm not talking about challenge ratings. Challenge ratings are useless as soon as the monster affects one class differently than the rest like undead or elementals. challenge ratings are useless as soon as you try to change even the smallest detail of a creature in 3e.

3e is the only version of the game I played where using the described method of determining monster difficulty wound up causing a TPK.

I guess some people forget that there was a game called AD&D that people played from 1978 or so until 1999 or there about. Hit dice and monster level were the thing then and it worked pretty well. It works in 3e too by the way. But since there are no hit dice or monster level in 4e it can't work so the developers had to do something. Right? (monster level associated with it's hit dice which determines hit points, not the level used to approximate the appropriate challenge for a party of players)

 

[avin]

I guess some people forget that there was a game called AD&D that people played from 1978 or so until 1999 or there about. Hit dice and monster level were the thing then and it worked pretty well.

I wasn't talking about CR either. My answer was about you saying we DMs were able to figure out how monsters worked for 30+ years and I can't agree that it was true at beginning. At least me and my friends couldn't.

Started on AD&D2E and in my experience there where monsters and Monsters at the same level, granted, not so obviously different in power/lethality like in 3E. But even on AD&D2E an "Elite" mark for some particularly nasty creatures (sup Beholder?) would be welcome.

We must remember DDN will be a new edition, as AD&D was someday... and before we know back-to-front how the monsters worked, some Solo or Elite advice, in my opinion, wouldn't be a wasted line on that gorgeous AD&D2E Monstrous Manual.

Can't talk about AD&D1E or Basic, tho...

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I guess some people forget that there was a game called AD&D that people played from 1978 or so until 1999 or there about. Hit dice and monster level were the thing then and it worked pretty well. It works in 3e too by the way. But since there are no hit dice or monster level in 4e it can't work so the developers had to do something. Right? (monster level associated with it's hit dice which determines hit points, not the level used to approximate the appropriate challenge for a party of players)

I started with Basic and AD&D; ran them for a long time. I disagree with your premises and your conclusions. I'm not the only one with that background that does so. Despite what some of you guys keep telling yourselves, 3E/4E were not liked solely because they were only played/ran by people who became aware of roleplaying this century.

It worked ok--once you played with it awhile, as Avin said. That is, once you had played long enough to develop your own, ad hoc sense of what creatures could do. Perhaps the difference is not in who started play when, but between those of us who played and remembered how it actually was to learn it cold, versus those that didn't?

 

[BobTheNob]

Got a good thumbs down to that one . I never thought it was the greatest idea, I was just reading one SOD's and Minions at the same time and the ideas converged.

No problem with that, thats why you put ideas on the board, this one just didnt stick.

Lord god, why don't you want 5e to explicitly tell the DM what role the monsters have in a fight? Do you actually want new DMs to suffer, make lousy games, and quit?

Ummm, but as to this response. Do you really think its anyone on this forums intention to "...want new DMs to suffer, make lousy games, and quit?". Come on mate, give it a bit more thought please.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Lord god, why don't you want 5e to explicitly tell the DM what role the monsters have in a fight? Do you actually want new DMs to suffer, make lousy games, and quit?

The monster's role is the same as the pc's. To survive and defeat their enemies. No other role is needed.