Crescent Moon power from Dragon 386

[Mengu]

I can answer that, since I wrote that power!

You can use any weapon (melee or ranged). You don't actually throw or shoot your weapon, just draw an arc through the air with it.

So is this power meant to draw an opportunity attack or not?

If "yes", there should be a special line such as:

Special: You may use a melee weapon for this attack.

If "no", the range should be "Melee 5" and there should be a special line such as:

Special: You may use a ranged weapon for this attack.

You cannot use melee weapons (that are not heavy thrown or light thrown) with ranged powers (unless the power specifically says you can).

 

[Nichwee]

That's not really mandatory.

As a Weapon power, it derives its damage from the weapon's damage, and is improved by a magic weapon (something a Paladin is far more likely to have than a magic holy symbol). And it builds upon the story elements of Sehanine mentioned in the article, which states that followers of Sehanine prefer big, curved blades like scimitars and falchions (hence the longer range when wielding a heavy blade).

The "draw crescent arc" aspect is just one possible description, really. Mechanics-wise, it works just as if the Paladin had hurled his weapon, or created a magical duplicate of the weapon to mimic his strikes. The crescent of light was just more in line with a power associated with the Moon Goddess.

Fair point.
Just I think this is the only case I can think of where a Ranged power is usable with a non-ranged weapon - without it actually being a Implement power used by a weaplement character.

Actually it seems the swordmage allows some of these "ranged with a melee weapon" powers but it puts 'throwing your melee weapon' as a requirement and then has it return as an effect.
So a little more clarification may have helped but it doesn't break the mold as much as I thought.

 

[Klaus]

So is this power meant to draw an opportunity attack or not?

If "yes", there should be a special line such as:

Special: You may use a melee weapon for this attack.

If "no", the range should be "Melee 5" and there should be a special line such as:

Special: You may use a ranged weapon for this attack.

You cannot use melee weapons (that are not heavy thrown or light thrown) with ranged powers (unless the power specifically says you can).

As a Ranged attack, it does draw opportunity attacks.

 

[DracoSuave]

You cannot use melee weapons (that are not heavy thrown or light thrown) with ranged powers (unless the power specifically says you can).

Actually, the page you brought up does not actually say you cannot use melee weapons in ranged powers or ranged weapons in melee powers.

What it says is that you cannot use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon... and that melee weapons as thrown can be used as ranged weapons. But neither of these define nor restrict what powers they can be used as. The only rules text that exists on the matter:

Weapons in all four categories are further categorized as melee weapons, which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon, or ranged weapons, which you use to fire at more distant enemies.

Thusly, the rule does not exist except through the artifice of DM assumption or interpretation. However, ranged weapons cannot be used with "Melee weapon"-range powers because ranged weapons lack the 'reach' trait, while melee weapons without ____ thrown cannot be used in "Ranged weapon"-range powers because they lack the 'range' trait.

Further more, melee weapons can be used with ranged powers with the Implement keyword just fine, staff wizards have been all about that since the beginning. The Weapon keyword does not make any exceptions to this allowance either.


In my opinion, the rule SHOULD exist, but it does not. And the design of the power mentioned here is designed as the rules -are- not as how they should be... and the designer himself has pretty much stated what RAI is...

RAI is legal by RAW, therefore, RAW says you can do it.

 

[Mengu]

Let me preface by saying, I understand RAI and have no problem with it, and thanks Klaus for clarifying that.

Maybe I'm making too many assumptions, but for my thought process let me quote the section I'm looking at:

"A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and can be used with ranged attack powers that have the weapon keyword."

Is it too much of a stretch to infer from this that "otherwise you can't use a melee weapon for a ranged attack power that has the weapon keyword"? Why would they have the above statement if you could use all melee weapons with ranged attack powers?

 

[Mirtek]

I believe this is key, yes. Note that melee attacks generally have a range of "Melee Weapon",

Actually that's incorrect. The range is not "melee weapon". The attack type is "melee", the range is "weapon". Not "melee weapon", but "melee" and "weapon" being to separate descriptors.

Each attack is either "close", "ranged", "melee" or "area" followed by the range of the attack. Do not read "melee" "weapon" as "melee weapon". It's confusingly similar to the headline from the tables in the equipment section which do indeed say "melee weapon", but it's not that

 

[cdrcjsn]

I think the confusion is certainly warranted.

Is there a power that is similar to this in the game anywhere?

PG219 of the PHB under Range states: "...An entry of "-" indicates that the weapon can't be used at range."

Every single melee weapon has "-" under range, except for heavy or light thrown weapons.

This power definitely needs a "Special: you can use a melee weapon with this power as a ranged attack" entry, since the author apparently intended it to work with both ranged and melee weapons.

 

[DracoSuave]

A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and can be used with ranged attack powers that have the weapon keyword."

Is it too much of a stretch to infer from this that "otherwise you can't use a melee weapon for a ranged attack power that has the weapon keyword"? Why would they have the above statement if you could use all melee weapons with ranged attack powers?

It's not too much of a stretch, and it's probably the way things should be.

But 'should be' and 'is' are not the same verb tense.

Building a chain out of existing rules:

You may use weapons in powers with the Weapon keyword

This is the general rule.

You may use thrown weapons as ranged weapons with ranged powers that have the weapon keyword.

This is the specific rule.

PG219 of the PHB under Range states: "...An entry of "-" indicates that the weapon can't be used at range."

Every single melee weapon has "-" under range, except for heavy or light thrown weapons.

But, even restricting myself to PHB1 and only that source, I can find a problem with your interpretation.

A quarterstaff has a range of -. My wizard can cast Magic Missiles through it. Your example rule does not differentiate between weapon and implement. Clearly tho, I -can- cast magic missiles through staffs.

Therefore, 'using a weapon at range' must mean something other than 'use with a ranged attack'. In this case, it means to use the range parameter of a weapon... and the only time that happens are in 'Ranged weapon'-range powers.


EDIT: The problem here isn't in your interpretation, in terms of making the game work. It just needs to actually be in the rules, rather than alluded to or assumed you know it despite it's non-existance.

 

[Klaus]

When a Weapon power has "weapon" listed as a range, you use the weapon's reach (if it's a melee power) or range (if it's a ranged power). Because most melee weapons have no range, they can't be used with "Ranged weapon" powers.

But when a weapon power has a fixed range, you can use it with any weapon. You could use a longbow with a "Melee 1" power, just as you can use a greataxe for a "Ranged 5" power, provided both were "Weapon" powers.

But if anyone still has doubts on this, I'd suggest sending your questions and suggestions to the DDi feedback e-mail, so they can be taken into consideration by the WotC folk.