critical hits and auto-hit adjacent targets?

[Mengu]

Quoting relevant bits for Fiery Bolt:

Target: One creature

Hit: 3d6 + Constitution modifier fire damage, and creatures adjacent to the target take 1d6 + Constitution modifier fire damage.

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The target is one creature, and that is the creature that's hit. It is the only creature for which damage should be maximized, and extra dice rolls from magic implement should be applied. Adjacent creatures are simply damaged, so that damage should not be maximized. Technically, the adjacent creatures are not even attacked.

Similarly, when you hit a target with cleave, the adjacent enemy is neither attacked, nor hit, they are simply damaged. A fighter does not get to mark them, and does not get to roll critical damage dice from a magic weapon.

Furious smash is a weapon attack that hits the target, so it would benefit from extra magic weapon critical dice.

For Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke, the secondary damage is not generated from a hit. It is generated as a consequence of another trigger, and as such, the damage should not be maximized.
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[Hypersmurf]

The target is one creature, and that is the creature that's hit. It is the only creature for which damage should be maximized, and extra dice rolls from magic implement should be applied. Adjacent creatures are simply damaged, so that damage should not be maximized. Technically, the adjacent creatures are not even attacked.

They're not attacked, but they take damage from the Hit. The critical hit does not maximise "damage dealt to the target"; what's maximised is the damage dealt by the critical hit.

You made an attack; the attack deals damage to the target you attacked and also to creatures you did not attack; the damage dealt by the attack is maximum damage.

Similarly, when you hit a target with cleave, the adjacent enemy is neither attacked, nor hit, they are simply damaged. A fighter does not get to mark them...

Agreed.

... and does not get to roll critical damage dice from a magic weapon.

Why not? The Hit entry describes damage dealt to the adjacent enemy; a critical hit with a magic weapon adds dice to damage dealt. The adjacent enemy is being dealt damage due to a critical hit with a magic weapon. I can't find anything that specifies it only applies to the creature designated the target of that attack roll; the damage results directly from the Hit that became a critical hit.

For Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke, the secondary damage is not generated from a hit.

So what about powers with Hit entries like "4[W]; if the target is already bloodied, add 2[W]." Is there a difference between Hellish Rebuke's extra d6 and the extra 2[W]?

-Hyp.

 

[Mengu]

They're not attacked, but they take damage from the Hit. The critical hit does not maximise "damage dealt to the target"; what's maximised is the damage dealt by the critical hit.

But you have to first determine if you scored a critical hit. To do this you compare your attack roll to the target's defense. How do you determine you scored a critical hit on a target you didn't even attack?

So what about powers with Hit entries like "4[W]; if the target is already bloodied, add 2[W]." Is there a difference between Hellish Rebuke's extra d6 and the extra 2[W]?

The difference is that for Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke, target does not take the extra damage when hit. Curse damage, sneak attack damage, the 2[W] example you gave, etc. are dealt when the target is hit, so they would be maximized.

It's also rather cumbersome to track the fact that you scored a critical hit last time you attacked (not that this has anything to do with the actual rule discussion).

 

[Hypersmurf]

But you have to first determine if you scored a critical hit. To do this you compare your attack roll to the target's defense. How do you determine you scored a critical hit on a target you didn't even attack?

How do you determine you scored a hit on a target you didn't even attack? Answer - you didn't. He takes damage from the hit anyway.

You first detemine if the hit is a critical hit. If the hit is a critical hit, the critical hit deals maximum damage.

You don't score a critical hit on a target you don't attack; that's not the question. The question is whether the critical hit (determined based on the target you do attack) deals maximum damage. That critical hit might be dealing damage to creatures who are not the target; does that affect the rule that the critical hit deals maximum damage?

The difference is that for Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke, target does not take the extra damage when hit.

Is the timing important? The Hit deals damage twice (potentially), and if it's a critical hit, it deals maximum damage. Why does it matter that some of that damage is immediate, and some happens later?

-Hyp.

 

[Mengu]

I guess reading the critical hit rules, it's just not intuitive to me that you should deal critical hit damage to a creature you didn't hit. Comparing the wording to combat challenge I see that there is no mention of a "target" for a critical hit, so I'll concede the point, though I'll keep my eyes open for an official clarification.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

By your logic, Hypersmurf, what prevents a critical hit causing maximum damage on an effect of the following type?

Hit: [W] damage
Secondary hit: Str vs. Fort, 2D6 damage.

The secondary hit is as much caused by the primary hit as is the "splash" damage of fiery bolt. Putting a second hit requirement in there does not prevent the damage from being caused by the critical hit.


Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

 

[webrunner]

But you have to first determine if you scored a critical hit. To do this you compare your attack roll to the target's defense. How do you determine you scored a critical hit on a target you didn't even attack?

Because the other targets aren't 'targets'. they're creatures that also get damaged by the attack you targeted on the first target. It's the same attack, and the same Hit.

Hit: [W] damage
Secondary hit: Str vs. Fort, 2D6 damage.

Because the second hit is a new roll. It's a new attack (in fact, they always say stuff like "Secondary attack" or something).

You maximize all dice on the hit you just made. If youy have to make another hit, it doesnt maximize that damage. If you get extra damage to other targets that dont require more than one roll, then you do.

 

[Revinor]

Is the timing important? The Hit deals damage twice (potentially), and if it's a critical hit, it deals maximum damage. Why does it matter that some of that damage is immediate, and some happens later?

What about Flaming Sphere then? Is the critical attack on first attack affecting later auto-damage? What if I attack with FS again and do not score the critical? What if it was normal hit at start and crit afterwards? Should I stop attacking to preserve maximized 1d4 ?

 

[Gruns]

Not this difficult.

What about Flaming Sphere then? Is the critical attack on first attack affecting later auto-damage? What if I attack with FS again and do not score the critical? What if it was normal hit at start and crit afterwards? Should I stop attacking to preserve maximized 1d4 ?

I think you're making this more difficult on purpose...
Do you roll a d20 to see if you hit? Was it a 20? Then the damage is maxxed.
Obviously since you have to roll the d20 again when you sustain the Sphere, it's a new attack roll which may or may not be a crit, independent of previous or future attack rolls.
Later
Gruns

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about Flaming Sphere then? Is the critical attack on first attack affecting later auto-damage? What if I attack with FS again and do not score the critical? What if it was normal hit at start and crit afterwards? Should I stop attacking to preserve maximized 1d4 ?

The 1d4 is the result of the Effect, not the result of the Hit. A critical hit is something that a Hit can be, not something that an Effect can be.

-Hyp.