Criticals and double dice

[captainbananas]

I agree entirely. But I believe that if you tried to follow an algorithm like captainbanana's, you would end up with a different result. IMO that is an argument for not having an algorithm.

To directly answer your question, and assuming the 'shrug it off' feature is implemented as you wrote it: Any damage, including bonus dice damage from a critical hit, would only apply if the creature failed its con save. This is because "specific trumps general." The save triggers irrespective of the amount of damage, dice, or any other variable, and negation is negation. It sounds like you're envisioning a situation where the creature is hit with an attack that is a critical success, makes its save, but still takes the extra damage from the critical. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Final nitpick: what I described was not an algorithm, though it could be used to work one out.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, exactly.

If I was on social media, I would put the following questions to Crawford:

1. The Arrow of Slaying adds 6d10 damage if a Con DC 17 save is failed. Since this damage is not magical or poison but "more piercing", is it still secondary and not extra damage, simply because its gated behind a save?

2. Where in the rules can I find the language you draw upon when you say criticals double extra damage but not secondary damage (damage behind a subsequent saving throw or attack).

Here is Jeremy Crawford's reply to your first question.

Saving throws can't score critical hits. If a saving throw is contingent on an attack hitting, the save is unaffected by that attack scoring a critical hit.

Do you want me to ask your second question as-is, or did you want to change it or ask something different in response to his reply?

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think I get your question.

Specifically, are secondary effects of attacks also doubled on a critical.
Such as the basilisk that does 10 piercing damage plus 7 poison damage on a hit versus a quasit whose tail does piercing damage and forces a save causing additional poison damage.

Most examples do seem to either be status effects or poison. But I can imagine an undead creature hitting with a slam and forcing a saving throw that causes additional necrotic damage.


I don’t see any hard rule clearly differentiating. The RAW answer is that anything tired solely to the hits is doubled, while anything with a save associated is a separate effect. As only the attack’s dice are doubled. They’re two related but distinct sources of damage.
Like a flaming arrow hitting a cask of oil. The arrow can crit, but the resulting side effect of an exploding arrow would have its own save and wouldn’t have dice doubled.
But that’s as much a “ruling” as RAW.

So the basilisk’s poison would be doubled as that is directly caused by the attack. It is the attack’s damage. But the quasit’s poison isn’t caused by the attack so it isn’t doubled.

I would take another path with that poison damage. The point I contend with is that the critical rules are very clear in that doubling only applies to DICE. If the poison damage is a flat 7 then it wouldn't be doubled. It would be no different than a STR bonus. If the poison damage is expressed as 2d6 then it would be doubled as it is being expressed as a number of dice.

So my take is if the damage in question results from an attack roll AND is expressed in X(dice) then it is doubled. This would be regardless of whether there was a save to halve the extra damage. Now if the extra damage does not apply at all unless a save is failed then it would not be doubled. So the situations would break down like this:

rogue attacks with poisoned weapon: 1d8 slash+4d6 sneak + 4d6 poison+5(DEX & magic) on a crit would be 2d8+8d6+8d6+5

big monster attacks with poison stinger: 2d6 piercing +15 poison+4 (STR) on a crit would be 4d6+15+4.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Here is Jeremy Crawford's reply to your first question.
Originally Posted by Jeremy Crawford on Twitter
Saving throws can't score critical hits. If a saving throw is contingent on an attack hitting, the save is unaffected by that attack scoring a critical hit.

That quote answers my question.

Hopefully that phrasing will be added to Sage Advice and/or the PHB.

 

[Pauln6]

I would only allow damage from class features to be doubled not additional dice caused by equipment ormagic items like a Flametongue.

 

[Jonathon Robinson]

I think the best way to look at it is if the extra damage requires another roll to see if it hits.

If there is no additional roll to the extra damage (e.g. Sneak Attack, Flame Arrows) then the extra damage is considered part of the hit and you roll double the number of dice on a crit. If the extra damage requires another roll (e.g. Poisoned Dagger that requires a CON save, Arrow of Slaying that requires a CON save, Lightning Arrow that requires a DEX save (hit or miss)) or a full turn to pass (e.g. Witch Bolt, Fire Bolt or other fire spells which ignites the target) then it is a secondary effect that is triggered off of the initial effect and therefore subject to another "does it crit?"

Damage on Savings Throws are not subject to critical hits (most of them do half damage on a miss instead).

I think it is most clear on effects such as Eldritch Blast, or simply Extra Attack, that if one of the beams does a critical hit, the others don't automatically crit. I'm unsure why anyone would try to apply crit bonus dice to secondary effects when a) savings throws are not subject to critical hits and b) it requires another d20 roll to see if the secondary effect hits. There's nothing suggesting an auto-crit on a hit for secondary effects.

I'm unfamiliar with Booming Blade but Witch Bolt is an interesting one as there is a ranged spell attack and then 1d12 lightning damage every turn afterwards. It is clear that a critical hit would do 2d12 damage but on subsequent turns will the spell still do 2d12 damage? I personally don't think it makes sense to apply the critical hit beyond the initial round it was cast but there's definitely wiggle room in the rules.

All in all it would be great if the rules were clear on critical hits on secondary effects but in the groups I've played the question about critical hits on secondary effects has never even come up (except for Witch Bolt and we agreed as a group that the additional damage only worked on the first "hit").

 

[Jonathon Robinson]

Your "Shrug It Off" ability would probably have a "unless the attack is a crit" qualifier.

Indeed, Zombies have Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think the best way to look at it is if the extra damage requires another roll to see if it hits.

If there is no additional roll to the extra damage (e.g. Sneak Attack, Flame Arrows) then the extra damage is considered part of the hit and you roll double the number of dice on a crit. If the extra damage requires another roll (e.g. Poisoned Dagger that requires a CON save, Arrow of Slaying that requires a CON save, Lightning Arrow that requires a DEX save (hit or miss)) or a full turn to pass (e.g. Witch Bolt, Fire Bolt or other fire spells which ignites the target) then it is a secondary effect that is triggered off of the initial effect and therefore subject to another "does it crit?"

Damage on Savings Throws are not subject to critical hits (most of them do half damage on a miss instead).

I think it is most clear on effects such as Eldritch Blast, or simply Extra Attack, that if one of the beams does a critical hit, the others don't automatically crit. I'm unsure why anyone would try to apply crit bonus dice to secondary effects when a) savings throws are not subject to critical hits and b) it requires another d20 roll to see if the secondary effect hits. There's nothing suggesting an auto-crit on a hit for secondary effects.

I'm unfamiliar with Booming Blade but Witch Bolt is an interesting one as there is a ranged spell attack and then 1d12 lightning damage every turn afterwards. It is clear that a critical hit would do 2d12 damage but on subsequent turns will the spell still do 2d12 damage? I personally don't think it makes sense to apply the critical hit beyond the initial round it was cast but there's definitely wiggle room in the rules.

All in all it would be great if the rules were clear on critical hits on secondary effects but in the groups I've played the question about critical hits on secondary effects has never even come up (except for Witch Bolt and we agreed as a group that the additional damage only worked on the first "hit").

Delivery is everything. If poison or other damage has these qualities then I allow double damage on a critical: 1) The damage must apply immediately upon scoring the hit. 2) The damage must be expressed as a number of dice. That's it.

If a save is allowed to halve the damage, the test is still met. OTOH if the extra damage only applies IF a save is failed then the test is NOT met. It keeps things simple, clear cut and consistent, and does not discriminate based on the source of the damage (ability, equipment, magic, etc.)

With regard to witch bolt I would not double subsequent round damage because no hit roll was required. Without a "to hit" roll there can be no critical hit.

 

[Jonathon Robinson]

Delivery is everything. If poison or other damage has these qualities then I allow double damage on a critical: 1) The damage must apply immediately upon scoring the hit. 2) The damage must be expressed as a number of dice. That's it.

Agreed. And I think both of your points can be clearly pulled from the RAW in the PHB.

If a save is allowed to halve the damage, the test is still met. OTOH if the extra damage only applies IF a save is failed then the test is NOT met. It keeps things simple, clear cut and consistent, and does not discriminate based on the source of the damage (ability, equipment, magic, etc.)

I don't follow you on this one. Can you give an example? Most savings throws deal half damage on a successful save. Are you saying that Lightning Arrow, because it triggers a save (that does half damage if successful) would auto-crit on a hit, if the hit that caused the Lightning Arrow to burst was a crit?

I would see that Lightning Arrow as a separate effect triggered off the hit (or miss) which triggers a separate d20 roll which would not be subject to critical hits because a) it is a separate roll and b) it is not an attack roll. This actually meets your 1st rule: the damage does not apply immediately on the critical hit (because you still need to roll to see if the effect was saved or not).

With regard to witch bolt I would not double subsequent round damage because no hit roll was required. Without a "to hit" roll there can be no critical hit.

What makes Witch Bolt an interesting edge case is there is only one d20 roll (a range spell attack roll). If you miss, there is no subsequent damage on following rounds so the next round damage is directly caused by the initial hit. There's also concentration on the spell so it is conceivable that the character is "keeping his initial hit going." In the end we ruled as a group that it doesn't make sense because it is a separate damage roll. With Sneak Attack you might roll all your damage at once, but with With Bolt you wouldn't. On a hit, subsequent rounds simply "auto-hit" with no roll, similar to Magic Missile, so the crit doesn't carry over.

On that note I would play a Rogue with Sneak Attack and a Poisoned Dagger that reads "If you hit with this dagger the target makes a DC 17 CON savings throw or takes an additional 2d6 poison damage.":
1) Roll a d20 to see if he hits
2) It's a critical hit! Roll twice as many dice for the dagger and sneak attack damage (2d4 + 4d6 + modifiers)
3) Roll a d20 to see if the target saves
4) He failed the save, roll 2d6 for the poison damage.

Since it is a separate damage roll that happens on a separate d20 roll, I would not double the damage dice. I think this example is the easiest way to illustrate how I think the rules in the PHB is intended. In particular the d20 roll in step 3 was not an attack roll so it isn't subject to critical hits.

If the Poisoned Dagger read slightly differently: "If you hit with this dagger the target makes a DC 17 CON savings throw or takes an additional 2d6 poison damage or half on a successful save" I would still run the rolls the same way, it's just now the effect does half damage on a successful save.

 

[jaelis]

Melf’s acid arrow has been a source of confusion here as well.