Critique my Scorpion Samurai

Gaiden

Explorer
I am attempting to build a scorpion samurai suitable to become clan champion. I was leaning towards the collection of clan feats listed in Rokugan with a few thrown in from Secrets of the Scorpion.

The end result will be a Samurai 10, Fighter 10. Here is the feat list:
Quickdraw

Way of the Scorpion (add int bonus to iniative)
Bayushi Technique x4 (+1d6 Sneak attack damage)
Pincers and Tail (improved feint)
Ruthless Sting (increase crit multiplier by 1 anytime damage a foe that is susceptable to SA)

Expertise
Improved Disarm
Strike at the Tail (gain extra attack when succeed at disarm or have disarmed weapon in offhand)
Improved Iniative
The Pincers Hold, The Tail Strikes (automatically threaten critical upon successful feint)

Combat Reflexes
Expert Tactician

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack

I've divided up the feats based on the feat chains they pertain to. The tactics this character would use would be to use spring attack to move, feint-attack, move. There is a house rule that allows this to work (beyond the strict wording of the feat). So, the character would move in with spring attack, use pincers and tail to feint as a move equivalent action and then disarm with expert tactician (which would kick in upon a successful feint). Upon a successful disarm, the free attack from "strike at the tail", would automatically threaten a critical per "the pincers hold, the tail strikes" and that critical would have its multiplier increased by 1 (ruthless sting). The attack would also get +4d6 sneak attack damage applied from Bayushi's technique feats. After the attack, the character would spring attack away. (Again, I know this deviates from the core rules of Spring attack, but ignore that for right now).

This tactic sounds pretty cool but at second glance is quite weak. First, feinting is virtually impossible in 3.5 with BAB being added to the SM roll. It seems like I am going to have to really boost bluff so that it at least matches max ranks+BAB. There's skill focus, an ancestor feat giving +4, and then a few other feats that grant +2. Of course, taking these will be at the expense of other feats listed. Also, disarm is not the easiest tactic with weapons held two handed requiring two successful attempts in a row (effectively negating this tactic altogether).

A few other feats that looked interesting that could be combined with this:

TWF
Exotic weapon proficiency - bastard sword (for twf), war fan (for bluff bonus)
Snatch weapon - combined with strike at the tail will give two free attacks with successful disarm.

Critiques and opinions welcome
 

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Gaiden said:
The end result will be a Samurai 10, Fighter 10. Here is the feat list:

Quickdraw

Way of the Scorpion (add int bonus to iniative)
Bayushi Technique x4 (+1d6 Sneak attack damage)
Pincers and Tail (improved feint)
Ruthless Sting (increase crit multiplier by 1 anytime damage a foe that is susceptable to SA)

Expertise
Improved Disarm
Strike at the Tail (gain extra attack when succeed at disarm or have disarmed weapon in offhand)
Improved Iniative
The Pincers Hold, The Tail Strikes (automatically threaten critical upon successful feint)

Combat Reflexes
Expert Tactician

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack

A few other feats that looked interesting:

TWF
Exotic weapon proficiency - bastard sword (for twf), war fan (for bluff bonus)
Snatch weapon - combined with strike at the tail will give two free attacks with successful disarm.

Exotic weapon proficiency is a poor choice. It gives you +1 damage. You're far better off taking Weapon Focus (whichever weapon you use). In fact, I'm surprised you haven't got Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and if you went to Fighter 12, Greater Weapon Specialization. Hmmm, looking at the Ancestral Diasho ability and Katana being an exotic weapon (masterwork bastardsword), you do want Exotic Weapon proficiency in Katana. More below.

Two-Weapon Fighting is not worth it. You're already short on feats (i.e. should get Weapon Focus et al.). Either go with one-handed weapon and shield, or two-handed weapon.

Bluff is not a class skill for Samurai or Fighter. Hence your max. Bluff rank will be 11.5 at 20th level. That's not good enough to Feint any monster CR worthy of your level. Either talk to your DM about allowing you to have Bluff as a class skill, or give up on the whole Bluff combo.

Looking at Oriental Adventures, I can't see any reason for you going to level 10 in Samurai. Fighter 12/Samurai 8 looks much better.

Bayushi Technique is weaker than Weapon Specialization. Weapon Specialization always works for +2 damage, whereas +d6 Sneak Attack only works sometimes.

Here's what I would do with a Human Fighter 12/Samurai 8. You have 1 feat from Human, 7 feats from Fighter, 3 feats and Ancestral Daisho from Samurai, and 7 feats from your 20 levels. That's 18 feats total. Here are my suggestions, in no particularly rigorous order:

1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
2. Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
3. Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)
4. Improved Critical (bastard sword)
5. Greater Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
6. Greater Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)

7. Dodge
8. Mobility
9. Spring Attack

10. Quickdraw

11. Power Attack

12. Improved Initiative

13. Bayushi Technique (+1d6 Sneak Attack)
14. Ruthless Sting (increase crit multiplier by 1)

15. Expertise
16. Improved Disarm
17. Strike at the Tail (extra attack if disarm succeeds)

18. Combat Reflexes

Ruthless Sting is a great feat. It improves your critical damage by +50%, so you definitely want that. I'm hoping you don't have to burn through 6 other feats to get it ...

I wouldn't take Way of the Scorpion. You want STR, CON, and DEX to be your primary abilities. INT is a waste of time for minimal benefit. Improved Initiative and high DEX are the way to go for getting a decent initiative.

No need for Expert Tactician, Pincers and Tail, or The Pincers Hold, The Tail Strikes, as you won't be able to succeed on a Bluff attempt anyway.

Just my thoughts ...
 

Well, it looks good.

I think I'd concentrate on doing one thing really well, and drop Improved Disarm, and Strike at the Tail, and try to get Bluff up there.

Subtle Manipulator gives +3 to Bluff, and Hide, -2 to Diplomacy
Skill Focus (Bluff)
Void Use, its flexible too...
are the feats I'd try and use instead.

At 21st level the Epic Reputation grants bonus Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform

Way of the Scorpion is good if you already have a good Intelligence, IMO.
 

I'm pretty certain the Bayushi family skill is Bluff, but I don't have the books in front of me.

Any champion of the Scorpion clan should have Bluff, Diplomacy and probably Sense Motive and Gather Information maxed; if this means spending a feat on Versatile (a great feat in any event), so be it. Being a great swordsman is nice and all, but for the Scorpion that will make you a Yojimbo or a member of the Dojo of Bitter Lies, which is fun, but weird.

Given the not-so-martial focus of the clan (unlike Lion, Crab, or Unicorn), I'd suggest a few levels of Courtier and/or Rogue. You'll be expected to handle yourself in a fight, but the face (re: mask) you show the rest of the world will be a political one, as is the case with just about every clan champion.
 

Tessarael,

A few things. First, the ancestral daisho means that the character will always be wielding his katanna or wakizashi. Wielding a shield would be more than a little unorthodox for a scorpion samurai and this character is designed to represent his clan. Dual wielding is actually descriptively exclusive to the dragon with their niten style. So this sort of limits where the character would go in terms of techniques. In general the character would always wield the katanna and nothing else for a stand up bashing contest. Of course, it is not at all the style of the scorpion to be direct - that is more the realm of the crab. The two weapon fighting feat, then, is there exclusively for specific tactics to be employed during a fight and not to be used all of the time.

Tessarael said:
Bluff is not a class skill for Samurai or Fighter. Hence your max. Bluff rank will be 11.5 at 20th level. That's not good enough to Feint any monster CR worthy of your level. Either talk to your DM about allowing you to have Bluff as a class skill, or give up on the whole Bluff combo.

Scorpion get bluff as a clan bonus skill. However, even still, trying to bluff another samurai with maxed out sense motive is going to be very difficult even still. This is one of the major reasons I wanted to get feedback.

Tessarael said:
Looking at Oriental Adventures, I can't see any reason for you going to level 10 in Samurai. Fighter 12/Samurai 8 looks much better.

Samurai gets a bonus feat at level 10, no Scorpion family has favored class fighter or samurai, and you can only get clan feats with character levels or bonus feats from the Samurai.

Tessarael said:
Exotic weapon proficiency is a poor choice. It gives you +1 damage. You're far better off taking Weapon Focus (whichever weapon you use). In fact, I'm surprised you haven't got Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and if you went to Fighter 12, Greater Weapon Specialization. Hmmm, looking at the Ancestral Diasho ability and Katana being an exotic weapon (masterwork bastardsword), you do want Exotic Weapon proficiency in Katana. More below.

Two-Weapon Fighting is not worth it. You're already short on feats (i.e. should get Weapon Focus et al.). Either go with one-handed weapon and shield, or two-handed weapon.

Bayushi Technique is weaker than Weapon Specialization. Weapon Specialization always works for +2 damage, whereas +d6 Sneak Attack only works sometimes.

Here's what I would do with a Human Fighter 12/Samurai 8. You have 1 feat from Human, 7 feats from Fighter, 3 feats and Ancestral Daisho from Samurai, and 7 feats from your 20 levels. That's 18 feats total. Here are my suggestions, in no particularly rigorous order:

1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
2. Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
3. Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)
4. Improved Critical (bastard sword)
5. Greater Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
6. Greater Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)

7. Dodge
8. Mobility
9. Spring Attack

10. Quickdraw

11. Power Attack

12. Improved Initiative

13. Bayushi Technique (+1d6 Sneak Attack)
14. Ruthless Sting (increase crit multiplier by 1)

15. Expertise
16. Improved Disarm
17. Strike at the Tail (extra attack if disarm succeeds)

18. Combat Reflexes

Ruthless Sting is a great feat. It improves your critical damage by +50%, so you definitely want that. I'm hoping you don't have to burn through 6 other feats to get it ...

I wouldn't take Way of the Scorpion. You want STR, CON, and DEX to be your primary abilities. INT is a waste of time for minimal benefit. Improved Initiative and high DEX are the way to go for getting a decent initiative.

No need for Expert Tactician, Pincers and Tail, or The Pincers Hold, The Tail Strikes, as you won't be able to succeed on a Bluff attempt anyway.

Just my thoughts ...

Your suggestions have a couple of weaknesses:

The improved iniative, bayushi technique, and ruthless sting are all focused around rogue style attacking (be it going first, feinting, etc.) However, all will only be applicable for this build when this character wins iniative. Moreover, ruthless sting will rarely see use because a crit must be scored, and it must be when the opponent is denied their dex bonus. Certainly improved crit will help with this - but not enough to warrant taking it I don't think. Bayushi technique also requires way of the scorpion as a prereq.

The second problem is the lack of synergy with spring attack. Granted, all the katanna boosting feats and power attack will be beneficial on a spring attack, but there is nothing to go along with it. Certainly, spring attack is a great stand alone feat. To get the most mileage out of the katanna boosting feats, the character would want to full attack as often as possible. Moreover, the exotic weapon prof. in this case is a complete waste. The character would not be using a shield and if not TWF'ing, would only decrease his damage potential wielding one handed, especially with power attack. The only case for the exotic weapon proficiency for this build is if the character wanted to grab the opponents weapon upon a successful disarm instead of getting the extra attack.

Combat Reflexes while a good stand alone feat is best when combined with expert tactician for a rogue style fighter. To me it seems, the character design needs to go in one direction or another - either full attacking with all the appropriate boosts, or rogue style fighting - feinting and winning initiative.

Another thing to note is that initiative is much more dynamic in Rokugan than in other settings. Improved Iniative simply is not going to cut it to ensure winning iniative. When going up a crane for example, the character is going to need way of the scorpion with a high int and dex, and possibly even speed of the kami (spend a void point to get a +4 to iniative).

So we go back to the beginning - it all comes down to tactics. Let me first take your suggestions and come up with a build optimally using the tactics necessitated by your feat selection:

Quickdraw is going to be an automatic feat selected because of iaijutsu focus. So let's just presume we have 17 feats to work with.

1. Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
2. Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)
3. Improved Critical (bastard sword)
4. Greater Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
5. Greater Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)

What direction do we go with the other 12? If we go with disarming, I would think:

6. Expertise
7. Improved Disarm
8. Strike at the Tail

To really get the most mileage out of this, I would continue with:

9. TWF
10. Exot. weap Bastard Sword
11. Snatch Weapon

Given that expertise has already been selected, I would shy away from power attack because they hinder each other. Moreover, if disarming is going to be a major tactic, neither feat will really see much use in the first place as every bit of attack bonus is going to be crucial in order to successfully disarm. The feat selection so far does have the strength that disarming will be at a slight boost (+2).

The remaining six feats to me are up in the air at this point. I personally feel the strongest scorpion technique feat is "the pincers hold, the tail strikes". Automatically threatening a critical is a powerful ability. To get this though, improved iniative will also need to be selected. Of course, to actually use the feat, the opponent must lose their dex bonus to a feint. This means the pincers and tail will be necessary which means way of the scorpion is required. That's 4 feats right their. Alternatively, combat reflexes and expert tactician could be taken instead of way of the scorpion and pincers and tail to accomplish the same thing - feinting and attacking in the same round. If crits are the goal and they are being accomplished with a feint, then ruthless sting seems like a great choice because it will increase the multiplier by 1 in those circumstances. So we have at least 5 feats. How will this character compare to another without these feats? This character is going to be limited to one attack a round. That attack will be at the highest attack bonus, against an opponent whose denied his dex bonus and it will deal base damage x3. The sixth feat now well might be power attack to get x6 PA bonus dmg (when wielding the katann 2 handed).

I actually have a question at this point: if you instead disarmed the opponent, would the strike at the tail kick in under the same circumstances (opponent still has no dex bonus)? I would think it would since it is a bonus attack "as if you had not used your attack to disarm your opponent". However, the bigger question is in regards to snatch weapon. Would snatch weapon kick in as well effectively allowing you to get the feint applied to both attacks since both are spawned from the same maneuver. IDHMBIFOM so I don't remember if snatch weapon has the same "as if you had not used your attck to disarm your opponent" language. Of course, if disarming was used, power attacking wouldn't be - a trade off.

If snatch weapon does not work, that 3 feat chain might be given up in favor of other feats. Regardless, how does the damage compare to a fighter-type taking a full attack. You get one really good hit in even at 20th level. How about a samurai getting in 4 attacks? This is the major concern and reason for including spring attack. This way, only a lion samurai would be able to get a full attack in. Spring attacking would mean the tactic could be combined with a move so that in order for the opponent to respond, they could only get in one hit. Trading a single hit for a single hit would give this character the advantage. Or course, to make this possible, expert tactician is necessary as well as pincers and tail. I'd probably ditch improved critical and superior weapon specialization.

So here is the new feat list:

1. Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
2. Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)
3. Greater Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
4. Expertise
5. Improved Disarm
6. Strike at the Tail
7. Improved Initiative
8. The Pincers Hold, The Tail Strikes
9. Way of the Scorpion
10. Pincers and Tail
11. Combat Reflexes
12. Expert Tactician
13. Ruthless Sting
14. Dodge
15. Mobility
16. Spring Attack
17. Power Attack

This is marked similar to my build. The difference is that in place of 4 Bayushi Technique feats, the two weapon focus feats, weapon specialization, and power attack were selected. So the trade off is 4d6 dmg when using this technique for +2/+2 + -X/+2X. The power attacking is suboptimal for disarming meaning that usually it would be one or the other. That's not necessarily bad though. What's the difference in dmg: 14 avg for the 4d6. To get similar to that from your suggestion we would need to power attack for 2: 3x(2+4), which as I am looking at it now, for the same attack bonus, grants an extra 4 dmg. All right, I am sold on the substitutions for Bayushi's technique feats.

Reviewing the feat lists, now there is no reason I can think of to not go Sam 4, Fighter 16. This grants an extra feat at the cost of skill points and saves. The extra feat could be greater weapon specialization. or perhaps some feat to aid in bluffing - either skill focus bluff, or void use. On the other hand, the loss of the will save from the samurai might not be worth the extra feat.
 

Comparing Sneak Attack and Power Attack, keep in mind that in most situations where you can use Sneak Attack you get a bonus to hit. e.g. +2 to attack when flanking, opponent denied DEX bonus, etc. You can use that extra attack bonus to do more damage with Power Attack.

From the build you have, you're focusing on using the Katana two-handed. I think that makes sense for the sake of STR bonus to damage, bonus to disarm, and extra damage when using Power Attack.

As Bluff is a class skill, your concept works much better. As you have Way of the Scorpion, I assume you'll have at least INT 14 - that will help somewhat with skill points. 4 levels in Samurai would be enough to get 20 ranks in Bluff by 20th level with those extra skill points from INT. I wouldn't rely on Bluff - it's something you can use vs. guys who don't have good Sense Motive, if they do, switch to a different tactic (e.g. disarm). Spending feats to make bluff better is probably not worth it until epic level. At 21st level you could pick up the epic feat that gives you +10 to a skill, or Epic Reputation for +4 Bluff as suggested by Green Slime.

Regards going for less levels in Samurai, I think it weakens your Ancestral Daisho ability, so be careful about that. (I may be wrong, only read through it briefly.)

What are your abilities and equipment going to look like? I'd be inclined to get the Wakizashi enchanted with Defending and/or Dancing to get benefit from it while focusing on using your Katana. Though if you are going to wield it, Two-Weapon Fighting makes some sense. (I really don't like Two-Weapon Fighting - most of the time it makes more sense to use a two-handed weapon and not burn the feats on Two-Weapon Fighting).

More thoughts :) ...
 

As a side because I noticed it talked about a few times. No Rokugani uses a sheild.

Also reducing your daisho ablility reduces your options on what enchantments you have on your blade. You should look at what ablities you'd like to add.
 

Tessarael said:
Comparing Sneak Attack and Power Attack, keep in mind that in most situations where you can use Sneak Attack you get a bonus to hit. e.g. +2 to attack when flanking, opponent denied DEX bonus, etc. You can use that extra attack bonus to do more damage with Power Attack.

Good call. The Bayushi's Technique would be applicable in all of these situations. The math I did was only applicable when feinting because of the pincers hold, the tail strikes. That actually makes the bayushi's technique a tad better as it is slightly more applicable. However, the katanna feats are usable all the time. Like I said, I am sold on the idea ;).

Tessarael said:
From the build you have, you're focusing on using the Katana two-handed. I think that makes sense for the sake of STR bonus to damage, bonus to disarm, and extra damage when using Power Attack.

Like I said, the only reason to go one handed would be to dual wield or go sword and board both of which are not descriptively feasable. That only leaves special tactics then which by comparison are not as useful.

Tessarael said:
As Bluff is a class skill, your concept works much better. As you have Way of the Scorpion, I assume you'll have at least INT 14 - that will help somewhat with skill points. 4 levels in Samurai would be enough to get 20 ranks in Bluff by 20th level with those extra skill points from INT. I wouldn't rely on Bluff - it's something you can use vs. guys who don't have good Sense Motive, if they do, switch to a different tactic (e.g. disarm). Spending feats to make bluff better is probably not worth it until epic level. At 21st level you could pick up the epic feat that gives you +10 to a skill, or Epic Reputation for +4 Bluff as suggested by Green Slime.

Bluff is actually a character skill - I get it as a scorpion clan member regardless of class. The skill points from Samurai would be used for iaijutsu focus and sense motive mainly with diplomacy next in the ranking. It's too bad I can't tweak a few more feats out of the build because void use would be great to have for flavor as would speed of the kami. If I do go with the 16 levels of fighter, I was also thinking about getting improved overrun (I think I can take it straight now). That would be cool to combine with the spring attack. I rolled up the character and got really lucky with stats high dex, str, int, and chr. So skill points I don't think will be an issue.

Tessarael said:
Regards going for less levels in Samurai, I think it weakens your Ancestral Daisho ability, so be careful about that. (I may be wrong, only read through it briefly.)

IIRC, ancestral daisho only depends on character level and not on samurai level. The real weakness is losing access to iaijutsu, SM, Dip, Battle as class skills and losing out on the will save.

Tessarael said:
What are your abilities and equipment going to look like? I'd be inclined to get the Wakizashi enchanted with Defending and/or Dancing to get benefit from it while focusing on using your Katana. Though if you are going to wield it, Two-Weapon Fighting makes some sense. (I really don't like Two-Weapon Fighting - most of the time it makes more sense to use a two-handed weapon and not burn the feats on Two-Weapon Fighting).

More thoughts :) ...

Like I said, I got some great stats. I actually was thinking of doing exactly what you suggest with the wakizashi - one thing often overlooked with the ancestral daisho ability is that it can be used on both your katanna and wakizashi. So my first goal for the wakizashi would be to get it defending and dancing so that I can release it for up to +5 AC. Also the descriptive element on that is pretty bad ass - I picture a whirling blade rotating on the horizontal access spinning around the samurai and again, dual wielding is really limited to the niten style of the dragon clan.
 

Dareoon Dalandrove said:
As a side because I noticed it talked about a few times. No Rokugani uses a sheild.

Also reducing your daisho ablility reduces your options on what enchantments you have on your blade. You should look at what ablities you'd like to add.

The Ancestra Daisho ability is based on character level and not class level. I could just take 1 level in Samurai to get it if I really wanted.

On another note, I forgot about the requirement of the ancestral feat for humans. That means that along with quickdraw, I only have 16 feats to work with which means I will drop greater weapon focus. For the ancestral feat I was going to take the subtle manipulator feat described above. There is another feat in SoS I think called tragic hero which gives a +4 bonus to bluff but requires a MEA to activate and can only be used an number of times/day equal to your int bonus. If it was a free action to activate it I'd take it, but I am hurting for number of actions in the round and am already taxing my feats to the max to pull of the tactic of feinting.

Thoughts?
 

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