Critique my Scorpion Samurai

[Westwind]

From a mechanical standpoint I think this character's weakness lies not so much in number of feats but in skills, more specifically skill caps. You'll manage on Bluff, but a decent Crane duelist will be able to win an iaijutsu duel without too much of a hassle.

A few possible solutions:

1) Start the game as clan champion, get the nice sword, and never duel Doji Kurohito.

2) Invest in more levels of the Samurai class. This might make more flavor sense as well.

3) Invest in classes that offer a better array of skills, such as Rogue (which is a free class for you).

For example, a Rogue 5/Samurai 13/Fighter 2 gets 15 feats, which is fewer than before but still decent. However, he also gets 3d6 in sneak attack, which means you can spend fewer feats on Bayushi Technique, a better overall Reflex save, evasion, Weapon Specialization in the form of Daisho Specialization, a better overall Will save (key key key for Scorpions), and better skill progressions.

Possible feats:Weapon Focus, Daisho Specialization, Expertise, Improved Initiative, Way of the Scorpion, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Power Attack, Pincers and Tail, The Pincers Holds/The Tail Strikes, Improved Disarm, Expert Tactician, Combat Reflexes, Ancestor.

To what degree is this character meant to be a badass swordsman and to what degree is he meant to be someone who would do well in the Scorpion Clan? That is, how much flavor of Rokugan are you trying to add in this character?

 

[SteelDraco]

From a mechanical standpoint I think this character's weakness lies not so much in number of feats but in skills, more specifically skill caps. You'll manage on Bluff, but a decent Crane duelist will be able to win an iaijutsu duel without too much of a hassle.

That's true, but it's also kind of expected. A Crane is a lot more likely to be focused on dueling than a Scorpion, and they have better technique feats for it. It's just what they do. The only clan that can even really compete for the title of Best Duelists is the Dragon.

2) Invest in more levels of the Samurai class. This might make more flavor sense as well.

3) Invest in classes that offer a better array of skills, such as Rogue (which is a free class for you).

For example, a Rogue 5/Samurai 13/Fighter 2 gets 15 feats, which is fewer than before but still decent. However, he also gets 3d6 in sneak attack, which means you can spend fewer feats on Bayushi Technique, a better overall Reflex save, evasion, Weapon Specialization in the form of Daisho Specialization, a better overall Will save (key key key for Scorpions), and better skill progressions.

The problem with that build is that you've got a hefty XP penalty, since Rogue is the Bayushi family's favored class. I'd think Rogue5/Fighter8/Samurai7, or something along those lines, might work better. I don't have my Rokugan book on me, so I don't precisely remember where Samurai get their bonus feats, but at least that way you wouldn't have an XP penalty.

I just can't picture a character who's intended to be the archetypical Scorpion without some levels in rogue or ninja.

 

[Gaiden]

From a mechanical standpoint I think this character's weakness lies not so much in number of feats but in skills, more specifically skill caps. You'll manage on Bluff, but a decent Crane duelist will be able to win an iaijutsu duel without too much of a hassle.

That is true if I went Samurai 4, Fighter 16. However, Samurai 10, Fighter 10 with my 17 int will not really be too much of a big deal. Taking Samurai at 1st, means a total of 164 skill points, 104 of which are from the Samurai. The skill cap for skills is character level based and not class based unless it is a class exclusive skill. This means that I could max out Sense Motive (23)Iaijutsu Focus (23), Intimidate (23), and Diplomacy (23), and Bluff (23) spending some of the fighter skill points (I just spent 15 minutes setting up a spread sheet). I can even get 9 ranks in tumble.

A few possible solutions:

1) Start the game as clan champion, get the nice sword, and never duel Doji Kurohito.

Not possible

2) Invest in more levels of the Samurai class. This might make more flavor sense as well.

See above

3) Invest in classes that offer a better array of skills, such as Rogue (which is a free class for you).

BAB is very important for this character especially because this character's tactics: disarm, and powerattacking. I'd love to have the character multiclass into ninja. However, if I understand the rules correctly, a ninja can't multiclass with Samurai because one is required to be honorable (i.e. lawful) and the other is required to be nonlawful.

To what degree is this character meant to be a badass swordsman and to what degree is he meant to be someone who would do well in the Scorpion Clan? That is, how much flavor of Rokugan are you trying to add in this character?

I'd prefer for the character to be as badass of a swordsman as possible. Right now, I'd say he is pretty darn badass. He is in smackdown range with the right spells from the shugenja he is protecting (the other PC) at midlevels. Of course, I want him to become famous (infamous) as a Scorpion as well and it would of course do well for him to be important within the clan for that to happen. Descriptively, I see this character holding an almost contradictory sense of honor. He for example would not ambush an opponent: he would announce his presence first - picture the assassin sent after Kenshin in the OAV series that Kenshin slices down the plane of symmetry. If you recall the ninja stepped out first to let Kenshin ready himself. On the other hand, loyalty to Rokugan first, the emporer second, and the scorpion clan third will dictate his every action. In the tradition of the scorpion he will lie, show no mercy, etc. I have not yet decided if he would use poison - I am thinking that he would against dishonorable opponents and would not against honorable opponents. I guess that is an important caveat - against an honorable character, he would show every respect and honor accorded, against a dishonorable opponent, he would show none. This is how I imagine him gaining a name for himself and gaining acceptance in Rokugan at large.

A Crane is a lot more likely to be focused on dueling than a Scorpion, and they have better technique feats for it. It's just what they do. The only clan that can even really compete for the title of Best Duelists is the Dragon.

I don't expect that I would be able to defeat a Crane in an iaijutsu duel, especially an iaijutsu master. As described above, I would be able to max out iaijutsu, I have a pretty nice charisma (14), and I get to increase the ability slightly from the training benefit associated with the dojo of lies. I certainly would not be bad at iaijutsu - just not as good as the crane. Now, this might be a reason to get void use, instead of subtle manipulator. I'll wait for feedback on that.

The problem with that build is that you've got a hefty XP penalty, since Rogue is the Bayushi family's favored class. I'd think Rogue5/Fighter8/Samurai7, or something along those lines, might work better. I don't have my Rokugan book on me, so I don't precisely remember where Samurai get their bonus feats, but at least that way you wouldn't have an XP penalty.

This build shows promise but loses 2 points of BAB. I'd rather go R4/S8/F8. I think the +1 to hit is more useful than the sneak attack and skill points. Actually going by the math in my previous post, every point of AB converted using PA gives me +6 dmg, so yes, BAB is more important than SA.

I just can't picture a character who's intended to be the archetypical Scorpion without some levels in rogue or ninja.

Multiclassing is rare in Rokugan, at least according to the books. I figured I might be stretching it to dual class with the Samurai and Fighter. Also, you start running into the problem of dojo's being focused to certain types of classes. I don't think there is a scorpion dojo that trains both Samurai and Ninja. I am pretty sure the dojo of lies trains samuria, fighters, and rogues - IDHMBWM. With that said, I would gladly sacrifice a few levels to gain some Ninja levels. I lose no BAB and get Sneak Attack. But as I said above, I don't think it is rules legal to multiclass the samurai and ninja.

Westwind, why do you say the will save is so crucial for the Scorpion? Regardless, if it is that important, perhaps I should be looking at the PrC that is all about fighting superior forces (grants immunity to fear). Also, there is a dojo that grants a huge bonus to your will save for mind effecting things and such when you are protecting your charge. I already have it built into my background that I will essentially be a yojimbo of sorts to start out with protecting a shugenja. Thoughts?

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

The Ancestra Daisho ability is based on character level and not class level. I could just take 1 level in Samurai to get it if I really wanted.

I'm not so sure about this. It's a Samurai class benefit. Reading the text it always refers to the character as a Samurai. Yes, in the chart it does say charater lvl but it's like spell progression. If you go up in another class you don't gain class benefits from the class that did not advance. It this is errata please let me know.

 

[Gaiden]

I'm not so sure about this. It's a Samurai class benefit. Reading the text it always refers to the character as a Samurai. Yes, in the chart it does say charater lvl but it's like spell progression. If you go up in another class you don't gain class benefits from the class that did not advance. It this is errata please let me know.

I don't think errata is necessary. There is a very clear distinction between character level and class level. It says character level and I have never run into a problem with this in the past. The big thing about advancing in samurai levels is getting access to the bonus clan feats, will save, and skill points.

 

[Treebore]

Limiting it to just Samurai levels doesn't make sense anyway, and how would you "rule it" anyways? Fighter class is still a subtype of Samurai. So their is no reason to limit it in this way.

 

[Westwind]

The skill cap for skills is character level based and not class based unless it is a class exclusive skill.

You know, I've been playing since the red box and I don't think I ever realized this--good deal.

However, if I understand the rules correctly, a ninja can't multiclass with Samurai because one is required to be honorable (i.e. lawful) and the other is required to be nonlawful.

I'm pretty sure that's the write-up in OA, but if I'm not mistaken there are lots of examples in Rokugan of clans having typical alignments and a lot of them (Crab, for example) aren't lawful. The entire alignment vs honor thing in Rokugan is blurry but there are lots of canon examples of non-lawful Samurai.

I want him to become famous (infamous) as a Scorpion

Dojo of the Bitter Lies is for you!

Actually going by the math in my previous post, every point of AB converted using PA gives me +6 dmg, so yes, BAB is more important than SA.

Fair enough.

Multiclassing is rare in Rokugan, at least according to the books.

True, and samurai/shugenja simply doesn't exist. However, check out Secrets of the Scorpion--there are lots of examples of various scorpion multi-classed personalities in there. A Bayushi Ninja might be rare but they do exist (of course, no one would ever admit this). Playing a Ninja will change the dynamic of the game quite a bit and a lot of their abilities don't work in armor, but walking into a city in armor that isn't Scorpion-controlled is, at best, an insult and, at worst, an act of war so that might work in your favor.

 

[Gaiden]

You know, I've been playing since the red box and I don't think I ever realized this--good deal.

Glad I could be of service.

I'm pretty sure that's the write-up in OA, but if I'm not mistaken there are lots of examples in Rokugan of clans having typical alignments and a lot of them (Crab, for example) aren't lawful. The entire alignment vs honor thing in Rokugan is blurry but there are lots of canon examples of non-lawful Samurai.

I did some more reading late last night. You are right that a samurai does not have to be lawful. The alignments then don't necessarily conflict. However, it seems that the honor does. The ninja class skills are described as nothing short of dishonorable. I was reading through the ex-samurai and ex-ninja sections. An ex-ninja can still use all of his/her skills but it says that if a character were to become honorable, he would quickly slip back to dishonorable status. I don't know how this would work out in game for using sneak attack with feinting (recall the part about announcing himself above) or poison only on foes he'd considerable dishonorable (again - previous post). If I were to dip into Ninja, I'd probably take 5 levels. This would give me +3d6 SA, uncanny dodge, poison use, and the pseudo-way of the scorpion feat which I doubt my DM would have a problem as doubling for the feat. This would mean I'd only lose out on one feat - probably daisho specialization. Of course, in reading through the tennets of bushido, I am thinking my character would probably lean towards an alignment of LE. He is not a nice person or particularly compassionate and he certainly is not going to be very truthful. He would value loyalty above all else with courage and honor following as close seconds.

The more I think about the description of the character - one who I want to develop a reputation as unique among scorpion in that he behaves honorably, while still holding the tenets and values of the scorpion clan closest to him, I don't really think the ninja or rogue levels are necessary. I'm also thinking of another thing: the real reason for the ninja/rogue levels would be for the skills. The SA dmg as shown with the bayushi technique feat is not really all that important. Certainly, an extra d6 dmg is nice, but it has subpar synergy with the rest of the build other than for ambushes which I have already decided this character would steer away from. The uncanny dodge isn't too important as this character will have a fairly high initiative already. In total it will end up probably in the neighborhood of +13 with level increases in dex and int. I can't see this character using poison too often. If he did use it, it would be limited to dishonorable opponents, and I might even put another qualifier, that they would have to be nonhuman. I see this game as being more political than anything. If I was a crab ninja in the shadowlands, this would be a different story. Really, the only ability that would see alot of worthwhile use is evasion and I think the hit to BAB is more costly than the benefit of evasion.

Playing a Ninja will change the dynamic of the game quite a bit and a lot of their abilities don't work in armor, but walking into a city in armor that isn't Scorpion-controlled is, at best, an insult and, at worst, an act of war so that might work in your favor.

Remember that I have spring attack and will most likely be making judicious use of tumble. That limits me right there. Also, IIRC, armor is really only worn for planned large scale battles. This character cannot really afford AC stuff in terms of feats. He has expertise and if I am greatly concerned about getting hit I can also fight defensively (with tumble granting the extra +1 AC). I will probably mostly have to rely on the shugenja I am protecting for AC. He has shield of faith and protection from shadowlands and will probably take the barkskin spell at the appropriate level. In general I will be focusing on trying to hit first and hit to kill. If that doesn't work, I've worked in the motility so that at least opponents will be limited to one attack a round which, hit for hit, will hopefully prove me the victor.

On another note, what are the opinions of the membership for switching subtle manipulator with void use and daisho specialization with speed of the kami. My iaijutsu score will be good but not great. This means that using the iaijutsu roll in place of iniative won't necessarily be optimal. Getting an extra +8 to the roll would be very useful to ensure I can go first. Moreover, in the absence of iaijutsu, I can still get a +2 to bluff twice per encounter (so long as I meditate for the hour in between). Not quite as good as the +3 to bluff, but the void use is very versatile. I can use it for attacking, and also saves. Even if I didn't take speed of the kami, even the extra +2 to iniative might be useful.

Thoughts?

 

[Gaiden]

So I think I have everything worked out. I will keep subtle manipulator and daisho specialization. I was wrong about the Dojo - the one he will have trained at is Honor's Lesson Dojo (which will give me another +2 to bluff). The Dojo of Lies would have given me +3 total but does not train fighters.

The only kata I think will really be important is the Blackened Sight kata. That will totally rock (50% concealment).

At first level I am looking at quickdraw and subtle manipulator as feats and will have a +11 to the bluff check with all modifiers. Regrettably I won't be able to get the feat combination for quite a while.

I am now looking at skills that would be useful. I can get all of the samurai class skills I need and bluff. The question then is should I max out jump and climb or look at cross classed skills for the rest of hte points. I will definitely invest in tumble for the defensive bonus and mobility advantage.

Thoughts on other skills?

 

[Westwind]

If you are really worried about Iaijutsu duels, there is a Scorpion PrC (in Secrets, I think) that allows you to negate a feat of your opponent's. Pick Quick Draw and/or Way of the Crane. You can't lose. I've never been a bog fan of Speed of the Kami and I love duels.

Using "low" skills will bring you dishonor if someone sees you. Some people will make an arguement that your ancestor sees you and that's where the honor loss comes from, which would be valid for an Akodo but I can't see Hiruma knocking down a Crab's honor for using Hide. Honor, unlike alignment, has a lot to do with perception. In part, that's why the L5R d10 game has the skill Sincerety. You need to be sincere, not honest, in Rokugan.

An honorable Scorpion (what are they called again?--Junshin?) can be a great concept. In fact, their former-but-still-active Champion used to be one. If there's an updated version, I'd love to see it.