Critique my Warblade please

[Darklone]

I plan on playing a warblade. However the fundamental problem they seem to have is the same problem a barbarian has - they can deal out wicked amounts of damage, but it is virtually impossible to do so while still having a high AC.

I really look forward to play a bbn/scout. Huge damage output while moving around, high AC due to skirmish, lotsa skillpoints and going for the tactical feat that screws Power Attack you can afford to enjoy all those raging and charging with lowering your AC.

I only need more feats. Powerful Charge, Reckless Charge, Imp skirmish, Power Attack, Cleave plus Gr Cleave for low level mass destruction from a distance plus Extra Rage.

 

[Mistwell]

I direct you to the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat.

Damage problems solved.

That feat is...complex. Could you walk me through how it is used to deal a lot more damage?

 

[Zurai]

That feat is...complex. Could you walk me through how it is used to deal a lot more damage?

There are 2 methods to gain crazy high damage with SGW.

First, every AoO you "give up" (don't make an attack with, but still expend) gives you a +4 to hit and +4 to damage against the AoO provoker on the next round. That +4 to hit translates directly into another +4 to damage using Power Attack, which means that every single attack you make in the following round gains +8 damage per AoO you give up. Say you're a Warblade with 3 attacks per round, dealing an average of, say, 15 damage each. The critter you're fighting provokes 2 AoOs from you and you give up those AoOs using SGW. On your next round, you're doing 48 more damage (whereas if you'd taken those AoOs, you'd only have done 30 more damage).

Second, you can use one round of attacks as touch attacks that deal no damage. For every touch attack that hits, you deal +5 damage to the target on your next round. This is a similar situation to the first, and can actually be combined with it to get truly obscene.

To go beyond obscene, add the Avalanche of Blades, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still manuevers and Combat Reflexes with either Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike feats.

The reason I call it out as a great option for sword-and-board Warblades is that the lower your expected damage per attack, the better both those options become.

 

[blargney the second]

Round 1: Avalanche of Blades with Combat Rhythm
Round 2: make as many attacks as possible with insane bonus damage

 

[Zurai]

Just as a full, over-the-top example:

Take a 20th level Warblade using a +5 longsword and a shield. Strength 22, Dex 18. All the maneuvers and feats I listed. His average damage per hit, not counting crits, is 15.5.

On his first turn in melee range of the great wyrm red dragon, he initiates Avalanche of Blades to change his iterative attacks from 31/26/21/16 to 31/27/23/19/etc until he misses. Then he uses the Combat Rhythm function of Stormguard Warrior to turn all of those attacks into touch attacks that deal no damage. On average, he should hit about 10 or 11 times before missing. We'll go with 10. That's +50 damage per hit on the dragon on his next turn.

On the dragon's turn, it full attacks him, provoking 5 AoOs from Robilar's Gambit. The warblade uses Channeling the Storm to thus add +20 to hit and +20 to damage for all of his attacks on the dragon on his next turn.

On the warblade's turn (he should have survived the full attack), he initiates Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still to get 2 full attacks at +51/51/46/41/36. He Power Attacks for 10, giving him a total of +80 damage per hit and turning his attacks to +41/41/36/31/26 x2. The dragon has an AC of 41, so only the 26's have a high chance of missing. We'll say he hits 7 times (the 41/41/36 x2 all hit, and one of the two 31 attacks hit). His average damage is 95.5 per hit; that's a total of 668.5 damage. The dragon only has 660 hp; it is now D-E-A-D dead.

 

[Mistwell]

There are 2 methods to gain crazy high damage with SGW.

First, every AoO you "give up" (don't make an attack with, but still expend) gives you a +4 to hit and +4 to damage against the AoO provoker on the next round. That +4 to hit translates directly into another +4 to damage using Power Attack, which means that every single attack you make in the following round gains +8 damage per AoO you give up. Say you're a Warblade with 3 attacks per round, dealing an average of, say, 15 damage each. The critter you're fighting provokes 2 AoOs from you and you give up those AoOs using SGW. On your next round, you're doing 48 more damage (whereas if you'd taken those AoOs, you'd only have done 30 more damage).

Gotcha. So to really make this tactic effective, you need a reach weapon (or a high-level feat to give you lots of AOOs) and combat reflexes. Because otherwise, you either won't provoke attacks of opportunity a lot, or you won't be able to give up enough AOOs when they are triggered.

Second, you can use one round of attacks as touch attacks that deal no damage. For every touch attack that hits, you deal +5 damage to the target on your next round. This is a similar situation to the first, and can actually be combined with it to get truly obscene.

Can you use a maneuver while making those touch attacks I wonder? If not, I wonder if you could use Stone Power?

To go beyond obscene, add the Avalanche of Blades, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still maneuvers and Combat Reflexes with either Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike feats.

The reason I call it out as a great option for sword-and-board Warblades is that the lower your expected damage per attack, the better both those options become.

Except this whole thing seems sorta a mid to high level strategy rather than a low level one. It will be quite a while before that character is actually consistently doing the high damage.

 

[Zurai]

Gotcha. So to really make this tactic effective, you need a reach weapon (or a high-level feat to give you lots of AOOs) and combat reflexes. Because otherwise, you either won't provoke attacks of opportunity a lot, or you won't be able to give up enough AOOs when they are triggered.

No. Actually, it matters more how many iterative attacks you get, rather than how many AoOs you get. With less than 16 average damage, for example, just 2 iterative attacks are enough to make Channeling the Storm preferable to taking the AoO. Since you have to have 2 iterative attacks to take SGW anyway...

Can you use a maneuver while making those touch attacks I wonder? If not, I wonder if you could use Stone Power?

You cannot initiate (most) strikes while using Combat Rhythm (Time Stands Still being an exception). You could, however, use Stone Power, though I wouldn't recommend it.

Except this whole thing seems sorta a mid to high level strategy rather than a low level one. It will be quite a while before that character is actually consistently doing the high damage.

Actually, martial adepts really shouldn't care too much what weapons they're using. At low levels, power attack isn't spectacular regardless of the weapon, and at high levels the bonus damage from the maneuver dwarfs base weapon damage. Matter of fact, the only levels where a warblade out damages a barbarian are 3 and 5.

 

[Mistwell]

No. Actually, it matters more how many iterative attacks you get, rather than how many AoOs you get. With less than 16 average damage, for example, just 2 iterative attacks are enough to make Channeling the Storm preferable to taking the AoO. Since you have to have 2 iterative attacks to take SGW anyway...

Then I must be misreading the feat. You need to GIVE UP an AOO to use it, right? Which means, to really be effective, you need to be able to use more than one AOO a round. Which means you need combat reflexes, and a way to trigger more than one AOO a round on average. Because lets face it, how often do AOOs really come around on their own for PCs without the PC doing something to encourage it (like a reach weapon, or a feat like Gambit or Karmic Strike)?

Actually, martial adepts really shouldn't care too much what weapons they're using. At low levels, power attack isn't spectacular regardless of the weapon,

Say what? A two-handed weapon using power attack at low levels sure SEEMS spectacular! So much so that many people want to ban or modify power attack because of it.

and at high levels the bonus damage from the maneuver dwarfs base weapon damage. Matter of fact, the only levels where a warblade out damages a barbarian are 3 and 5.

I'm just saying that, at lower levels, if you want a character that does a lot of damage, you need a two-hander with power attack and a high strength. This feat isn't effective for damage until mid to high levels, as far as I can tell.

 

[Zurai]

Then I must be misreading the feat. You need to GIVE UP an AOO to use it, right? Which means, to really be effective, you need to be able to use more than one AOO a round. Which means you need combat reflexes, and a way to trigger more than one AOO a round on average. Because lets face it, how often do AOOs really come around on their own for PCs without the PC doing something to encourage it (like a reach weapon, or a feat like Gambit or Karmic Strike)?

And again, iterative attacks matter more than AoOs for Channel the Storm.

Each AoO you give up adds 8 damage (with 1h power attack) to ALL OF YOUR ATTACKS ON THE NEXT ROUND.

Since SGW requires a +6 BAB to even acquire, you therefore need to average 16 damage per attack in order for the choice to actually attack with the AoO to actually be better than using Channel the Storm.

Number of AoOs don't change whether or not giving up the AoO gains you damage or not. If you deal an average of 15 damage per attack and have 2 attacks per round, it will always be in your best interest to use Channel the Storm as long as you're in a position to full attack that target on your next turn. On the flipside, if you deal 17 damage per attack and have 2 attacks per round, it's to your advantage to actually attack with each AoO.

Say what? A two-handed weapon using power attack at low levels sure SEEMS spectacular! So much so that many people want to ban or modify power attack because of it.

I've never heard anyone call for PA to be modified or banned, personally.

In addition, at low levels, it's not as much of a factor in the difference between 2h and 1h weapons, which is the context I was talking about. You do realize you can still PA with a 1 handed weapon, right?

I'm just saying that, at lower levels, if you want a character that does a lot of damage, you need a two-hander with power attack and a high strength. This feat isn't effective for damage until mid to high levels, as far as I can tell.

No, you do not need a two-hander with power attack and high strength. The difference in damage between a level 5 crusader initiating Bonecrusher with an 18 strength and a greatsword vs 16 strength and a longsword is 25 vs 21.5 damage. Even with a full 5 point PA it's only 35 vs 26.5.

 

[Mistwell]

And again, iterative attacks matter more than AoOs for Channel the Storm.

Each AoO you give up adds 8 damage (with 1h power attack) to ALL OF YOUR ATTACKS ON THE NEXT ROUND.

And unless you have a means of triggering at least one AOO reliably, that's a fairly useless ability.

No, you do not need a two-hander with power attack and high strength. The difference in damage between a level 5 crusader initiating Bonecrusher with an 18 strength and a greatsword vs 16 strength and a longsword is 25 vs 21.5 damage. Even with a full 5 point PA it's only 35 vs 26.5.

35 vs. 26.5 is a HUGE difference!