D&D 5E Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter vs. Defensive Duelist in a cage match

[Caliban]

That mental picture doesn't follow the rules though.

You can have this large sized multi 1000lb earth elemental grappled and pinned to the ground with a single hand. You are also able to move 15 feet per round while pinning this earth elemental to the ground, dragging it with you as you move. You are also able to stab this earth elemental with a rapier which has a blade that is a few feet long. Instead of suffering any penalties for attacking with such a long weapon while grappling with the elemental, you are actually making your attacks at advantage.

From a realistic standpoint, none of this actually makes any sense . It might be argued that you could pin a creature of your own size to the ground and have a hand free to punch it (if you used your legs to pin it). It is ridiculous to believe that you can pin something to the ground that takes up 4 times as much space as you while also still having one hand free, and also not utilizing your legs because you can drag it about as you please.

First explain to me how the existence of the Earth Elemental in this scenario is in anyway "realistic".

If you were running a "realistic" game, very few of your opponents would be larger than Medium. (Maybe a bull, bear, or tiger, etc.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

First explain to me how the existence of the Earth Elemental in this scenario is in anyway "realistic".

If you were running a "realistic" game, very few of your opponents would be larger than Medium. (Maybe a bull, bear, or tiger, etc.)

And don't get me started on how many DMs won't bat an eye at destroying a gigantic magical Iron Golem with the monk's bare hands in 5E, but somehow expect a twelve-inch thick stone wall to be an insurmountable barrier until you find a door through and the key to it.

(A clever-but-reasonable DM will just make it a load-bearing wall and let you destroy it.)

Edit: also in 5E, large creatures are unreasonably/unrealistically weak, judging by carrying capacities. 5E's size/weight rules are just wonky all over the place.

 

[dco]

Yeah, it's hard to say that the melee dude is better than the archery dude, when the whole thing hinges on exploiting broken grapple rules.

Yes and enemies can also grapple and be skilled with athletics.

 

[Ashkelon]

For enemies with a decent strength score and proficiency in athletics, at what point does it become viable for them to use their attacks to grapple/shove?

I imagine if both warriors are grappleshoved, neither has any advantage against the other and the combat would play out very differently. This is especially true when faced with groups of enemies where the prone warrior will be granting advantage to multiple enemies.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yes and enemies can also grapple and be skilled with athletics.

Incidentally, Stone Giants are pure awesome at Athletics. You can use them as wall-crawling giant mountain ninjas who love to punt PCs (or other monsters) off cliffs.

Fire Giants are pretty good at it too.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

For enemies with a decent strength score and proficiency in athletics, at what point does it become viable for them to use their attacks to grapple/shove?

I imagine if both warriors are grappleshoved, neither has any advantage against the other and the combat would play out very differently. This is especially true when faced with groups of enemies where the prone warrior will be granting advantage to multiple enemies.

It's a bit complicated and depends on the number of attacks each side has and what the terrain is. There are cases where it's clearly advantageous to grapple/shove (one high-Strength guy with three attacks and Athletics against a non-Athletics-proficient monster; if the monster tries to grapple/shove him it will take lots of time and attacks, and if there's room he can always just Shove it away with one of his attacks to break both grapples, and then stand up and re-impose his own grapple on the still-prone monster) and other cases where it's a lot murkier or is clearly a bad idea. I probably wouldn't try to grapple/shove a Stone Giant even with an Enlarged Eldritch Knight 12, but I might try it with a Eldritch Knight 11/Rogue 1 (Athletics Expertise), especially if there were a Lore Bardlock in the party (Hex: Strength + Cutting Words FTW).

Conversely, grapple/shove is an excellent thing for a horde of zombies to do to the PCs before they start gnawing on them. It's even good for the dramatic tension!