Crossbow fighting ranger

Khitan · Dec 10, 2011

Yeah, I know^^ I just wrote "demon" 'cause it was shorter xD It's an "evil outsider's bane heavy crossbow" xD

Comments about the build?

StreamOfTheSky · Dec 10, 2011

Umm...as a switch hitter it's incredibly suboptimal, but you want a switch hitting xbow user, so I guess it's about as good as can be. Saving a feat on crossbow master helped, but waiting till level 10 for IPS is pretty painful.

I'd drop the armor down to a +1 and with the money saved make the buckler +1 (so you end up with the same AC), get a +1 cloak of resistance, and still have 1000 gp to spare. Really, don't invest too much into the armor in general, you're going to want to switch it out for mithral breastplate / celestial armor / mithral chain shirt after a while anyway. Even now it's blocking off some of your dex bonus (still better overall than chain shirt, so good call, but it has no place in your arsenal within the next few levels).

Realize going melee means taking a -1 to hit due to buckler and losing its AC bonus...again, switch hitting = bad idea.

How attached are you to that animal companion as opposed to say...a more optimal one?

Khitan · Dec 11, 2011

First of all thanks for the help xD

Second of all I know that's incredibly suboptimal but I tried to make it optimal (with bow, cheetah and so on...) but then, when I picture my dwarf with the bow, the falchion and the cheetah... well... I just couldn't see it xD I'm lucky that in my group the plain optimization isn't that important (we still try to make strong PCs but we accept having PCs a little less stronger but more interesting^^) so I really prefer having a PC that I like than a strong one... and, even if it's suboptimal, I don't think that my dwarf is that weak^^ I'm I wrong?

Speaking of the build... why is IPS so important? Will there be that much enemies with concealment? I ask because I've never played ranged characters so I'm not used to chek stuff like that xD

About the armor... I know that having a +1 armor and a +1 buckler helps me save some money, but since I'm going in melee from time to time, losing 1 AC (with the normal buckler) or 2 (with the +1 buckler) it's different^^ And I know that, expecially with the crossbow build, switch hitting is really worse than suboptimal but, as I said before, we have only one melee fighter and so, even if I will use my crossbow most of the time, I really need to be able to switch to melee if necessary. I used only one feat for the melee (power attack) so I don't think I wasted to many resources on my melee capacity...
And I'm not going to go in melee to often... just when really needed^^

Last but not least the animal companion. I imagine you're talking about the cheetah as better companion... well... I've already made a sheet for the cheetah and I know that it has better AC, 3 attacks, the trip ability, more initiative, more speed and with the appropriate feats (weapon finesse and agile maneuvers) better CMB and to hit bonus... but it's too damned skinny! I have my short, muscular, rude, bearded, almost always drunk dwarf with sigars, a greataxe and a f*****g big crossbow... whit a skinny cat on his side? It hurts my feeling more than having a bow xD Isn't there a way to make my dog a better companion (different feats/skills/abilities) instead of changing it? Or a way to have a better companion instead of the dog but still heavy, rude end massive?^^ I would have gone to the boar or the bison (or even the rhino xD) but I can't have them since I'm a ranger and not a druid...

Dingo333 · Dec 11, 2011

Animal Companion

By the rules, the only animal companions you can not get are the ape, bear, dino (velociraptor) and boar.

I have never found anything saying you can not take any of the animal companions in the beastiarys (The roc entry even call out rangers)

That said, I recommend the Arsinoitherium (mega fauna rino) or the T-Rex or the stegosaurus

Khitan · Dec 11, 2011

Well.. in the ranger animal companion section it clearly sais what animal companion can I choose... in the core rulebook I mean^^ Can I use different animal companions? Where is it written?^^

Dingo333 · Dec 11, 2011

Khitan said:
Well.. in the ranger animal companion section it clearly sais what animal companion can I choose... in the core rulebook I mean^^ Can I use different animal companions? Where is it written?^^

Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.

either the roc is the exception or the rule and I would say it is the rule.

StreamOfTheSky · Dec 11, 2011

Khitan said:
First of all thanks for the help xD

Second of all I know that's incredibly suboptimal but I tried to make it optimal (with bow, cheetah and so on...) but then, when I picture my dwarf with the bow, the falchion and the cheetah... well... I just couldn't see it xD I'm lucky that in my group the plain optimization isn't that important (we still try to make strong PCs but we accept having PCs a little less stronger but more interesting^^) so I really prefer having a PC that I like than a strong one... and, even if it's suboptimal, I don't think that my dwarf is that weak^^ I'm I wrong?

Speaking of the build... why is IPS so important? Will there be that much enemies with concealment? I ask because I've never played ranged characters so I'm not used to chek stuff like that xD

About the armor... I know that having a +1 armor and a +1 buckler helps me save some money, but since I'm going in melee from time to time, losing 1 AC (with the normal buckler) or 2 (with the +1 buckler) it's different^^ And I know that, expecially with the crossbow build, switch hitting is really worse than suboptimal but, as I said before, we have only one melee fighter and so, even if I will use my crossbow most of the time, I really need to be able to switch to melee if necessary. I used only one feat for the melee (power attack) so I don't think I wasted to many resources on my melee capacity...
And I'm not going to go in melee to often... just when really needed^^

Last but not least the animal companion. I imagine you're talking about the cheetah as better companion... well... I've already made a sheet for the cheetah and I know that it has better AC, 3 attacks, the trip ability, more initiative, more speed and with the appropriate feats (weapon finesse and agile maneuvers) better CMB and to hit bonus... but it's too damned skinny! I have my short, muscular, rude, bearded, almost always drunk dwarf with sigars, a greataxe and a f*****g big crossbow... whit a skinny cat on his side? It hurts my feeling more than having a bow xD Isn't there a way to make my dog a better companion (different feats/skills/abilities) instead of changing it? Or a way to have a better companion instead of the dog but still heavy, rude end massive?^^ I would have gone to the boar or the bison (or even the rhino xD) but I can't have them since I'm a ranger and not a druid...

It's not how weak the build is, it's the fact that things will get worse with level. You've basically shut yourself off forever from the other basic archery feats. The cost of maintaining two good weapons will severely pinch your finances as you get higher. And so forth.

IPS is hugely important. Concealment is common, but it does so much more than that. It also ignores less than total cover. Even if the DM never uses terrain for cover, just the simple act of shooting at an enemy with an ally standing between the two of you gives that enemy soft cover (and an effective +4 AC). Finally, IPS also lets you shoot into a grapple without possibly killing your friend. It's a great feat, and the fact ranger can get it FIVE levels early is really awesome!
You can get by without it, but I personally love it and try to get it ASAP.

Armor: How about this, then? Upgrading +1 armor to +2 costs 3000 gp. Use that money instead to get a ring of protection +1 (which adds to your touch AC, on top of overall AC) and Cloak of Resistance +1. You come out much better.

Animal Companion: Doesn't have to be a cat. Could even be as simple a change as the wolf. Dog's just really bad. At level 10 (effective druid level 7), I REALLY like the Roc and the various dinosaurs (T-Rex and Allosaurus are incredible). And I agree with Dingo, the Ranger list was made before Paizo added a crapton of new companion choices in bestiaries and so forth. It makes no sense to continue holding him to the initial core rule book choices as the druid is free to gain all the new animals as options. The rules don't specifically say one way or the other, but just as the Ranger's choice in the core rules is restricted to a certain list, so is the druid. The druid's just happens to be bigger. Druid doesn't say they can pick "any animal." It gives you a specific list just as Ranger does. So then later on, Paizo adds more choices for animal companion. Unless they say somewhere that the new options are druid only, it makes no sense to assume so.

Khitan · Dec 12, 2011

It's not how weak the build is, it's the fact that things will get worse with level. You've basically shut yourself off forever from the other basic archery feats. The cost of maintaining two good weapons will severely pinch your finances as you get higher. And so forth.

So what do you suggest? That I drop the melee completely (just carrying a 2h weapon as backup weapon) and focus only on the crossbow (taking point blanck shot so I can qualify for the other archery feats)? But will our only melee fighter survive in that way?

IPS is hugely important. Concealment is common, but it does so much more than that. It also ignores less than total cover. Even if the DM never uses terrain for cover, just the simple act of shooting at an enemy with an ally standing between the two of you gives that enemy soft cover (and an effective +4 AC). Finally, IPS also lets you shoot into a grapple without possibly killing your friend. It's a great feat, and the fact ranger can get it FIVE levels early is really awesome!
You can get by without it, but I personally love it and try to get it ASAP.

Noted^^ I'll put it in the build somehow xD You convinced me!

Armor: How about this, then? Upgrading +1 armor to +2 costs 3000 gp. Use that money instead to get a ring of protection +1 (which adds to your touch AC, on top of overall AC) and Cloak of Resistance +1. You come out much better.

Great idea xD And it was also easy xD

I REALLY like the Roc and the various dinosaurs (T-Rex and Allosaurus are incredible).

That said, I recommend the Arsinoitherium (mega fauna rino) or the T-Rex or the stegosaurus

Given some thinking... I think I might change the dog for a Roc or a Tyrannosaurus (yes.. they really ARE better than the dog xD even before level 7^^) but I'm still looking because I like other animals too...
ROC: it flies and it can grab opponents and toss'em in the air. Great AC, good attacks
TYRANNOSAURUS: Well... it's a damned Tyrannosaurus! xD I love the grab ability! xD Good damage...
ARSINOTHERIUM: Not a great AC but the powerfull charge (2d8) plus trample is tempting... it doesn't have the "flavour" of the T-rex though...
ANKYLORAURUS: probably the worst but it has stun.
STEGOSAURUS: Great AC, good damage + trip
ELEPHANT: Not the best AC but really good damage (gore+slam) + trample (2d6). But I'm not really convinced...

Right now I tend to choose the Roc or the T-Rex but I'm still thinking... (T-Rex is bigger, just like I wanted it for my dwarf, but the Roc is a lot more usefull, easier to take in the city and probably deadlier...)

Dingo333 · Dec 12, 2011

You are forgetting a melee fighter your group has, your Trex/stegosaurus/whatever big beater you choose.

I would defiantly drop power attack for point blank, you come out so far ahead it is not even funny.

Also, when you have point blank master, you can be up there with them without provoking AoO as you fill them with bolts