D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[ExploderWizard]

Then again the 1e Balor was kind of weak too. 8+8 HD was lame.

Pre-UA, the balor was kind of nasty. 75% magic resistance. An 11th level caster had only a 25% chance to affect it with magic. Lower level casters might as well not try. Do you realize how powerful the Symbol spell powers are in AD&D? A 7th level party would be wiped out with stun or sleep symbol.

Of course, a party that just happens to have 4 or 5 double specialized fighters, with girdles of giant strength and magic weapons, will make short work of it, much like a party using feats and magic items will have an easier time against the 5E version.

Any edition requires extra modification by the DM if the PCs are tricked out beyond the baseline assumptions.

 

[Athinar]

Question from a Newbie
What is the baseline assumptions of a PC's? "No Magic Items and 5 Characters" If that is the baseline then how does a Magic Item effect what the PC's can handle? Each Level (uncommon, etc..) of an Item increase that PC's ability to handle one more CR? or add 1/3 CR for each uncommon item, 1/2 CR for Rare, etc... Add up all the Item's rarity and add that to the CR of the encounter that which the PC's can handle?

 

[Hussar]

So, let me understand this. Every one of the 7th level PC's has magic ranged weapons, no one plays a GWF or melee specialist (after all, "tactically aware" players will all have ranged attacks) so they don't have to engage the balor in melee?

Really? How many magic weapons are you guys tossing out there? None of your fighter types ever go melee? A 7th level fighter type might have one magic weapon which is going to be focused on whatever specialization they took. That an entire group of 9 characters all have magic weapons and likely multiple magic weapons, is just bizarre to me.

The Balor has an AC of 19. What are your 7th level PC's attacking at? It should be about +8-10. That means the PC's should be missing just a tad over 50% of the time. Oh, that's right, your cleric is dropping Bless. But, that's only good for 3 PC's, what about the other 6? And, so what if you make your paladin fly? Are you seriously contending that your paladin can solo the Balor?

Balor flies over the wizard, nails him with the whip to draw him up 25 feet (DC 20 Strength save? Yeah, Mr. Wizard isn't making that - then again, nor are any of your dumpstat STR fighters who are all trying to use bows) nails him with the sword and then drops him for another chunk of damage. Good luck keeping concentration on that. And now Mr. Paladin goes thud into the ground too. Never minding that 40-45 points of damage should outright drop that 7th level wizard.

But, yeah, have the balor take on the strongest fighters and stand toe to toe, ignoring any tactical decision points and treating him like a meat sack. Sure, it's the system that's failed.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Question from a Newbie
What is the baseline assumptions of a PC's? "No Magic Items and 5 Characters" If that is the baseline then how does a Magic Item effect what the PC's can handle? Each Level (uncommon, etc..) of an Item increase that PC's ability to handle one more CR? or add 1/3 CR for each uncommon item, 1/2 CR for Rare, etc... Add up all the Item's rarity and add that to the CR of the encounter that which the PC's can handle?

There isn't a real formula for DM side adjustments. You just have look at the party and what it is capable of and guesstimate. Certain creature traits, such as resistance or even immunity to normal weapon attacks are meaningless when figuring out challenges for a party who are all outfitted with magic weapons. Large numbers of PCs with magic weapons can put the hurt on quite a bit that is well above the CR they can supposedly handle. For such parties, in order for monsters to be really tough and scary, think about what would the equivalent of the PCs NOT having magic items (or maybe only a couple characters having them) would be.

For example lets say you had a 7th level party and everyone had a couple magic items each. Only two characters have a +2 weapon. A big nasty for this party might be resistant or immune to magic below the 3rd level and immune to damage from weapons that were lesser than rare in quality. The group may only have a handful of spells at that level that will work on such an enemy and only a couple of party members can engage the creature with weapons. Those factors mean that if it is reasonably tough HP wise then it will last quite a while. Combine that bad boy with servitors or minions of a more standard variety and you have a nice tough encounter for this group, even very deadly if it is encountered after the party has used up most or all of their highest level spell slots.

The more options that are turned on for the players to use means more out of the box thinking and modifying the DM needs to do to maintain the same level of challenge.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

For example lets say you had a 7th level party and everyone had a couple magic items each. Only two characters have a +2 weapon. A big nasty for this party might be resistant or immune to magic below the 3rd level and immune to damage from weapons that were lesser than rare in quality. The group may only have a handful of spells at that level that will work on such an enemy and only a couple of party members can engage the creature with weapons. Those factors mean that if it is reasonably tough HP wise then it will last quite a while. Combine that bad boy with servitors or minions of a more standard variety and you have a nice tough encounter for this group, even very deadly if it is encountered after the party has used up most or all of their highest level spell slots.

Counterplay from the PCs will include those without magic weapons Helping those who do, grappling/proning/disarming the enemy, tossing oil flasks and caltrops, and acting as partial cover or even eating enemy attacks to keep the magic weapon guys in the game longer.

 

[shoak1]

Balor flies over the wizard, nails him with the whip to draw him up 25 feet (DC 20 Strength save? Yeah, Mr. Wizard isn't making that - then again, nor are any of your dumpstat STR fighters who are all trying to use bows) nails him with the sword and then drops him for another chunk of damage. Good luck keeping concentration on that. And now Mr. Paladin goes thud into the ground too. Never minding that 40-45 points of damage should outright drop that 7th level wizard.

But, yeah, have the balor take on the strongest fighters and stand toe to toe, ignoring any tactical decision points and treating him like a meat sack. Sure, it's the system that's failed.

Of course in your effort to make a point, you make the PCs sit like meat sacks and not mitigate/control what the Balor does...ie the wizard just stands in the open w/o mitigation/defensive strategies waiting to be lassoed, etc. Assuming equal tactical skill, stats are what makes the difference, and are theoretically what CR are based on. Many creatures have the ability to fly, but aren't granted 6 or so CR for the ability to do so.

 

[Hussar]

Counterplay from the PCs will include those without magic weapons Helping those who do, grappling/proning/disarming the enemy, tossing oil flasks and caltrops, and acting as partial cover or even eating enemy attacks to keep the magic weapon guys in the game longer.

Fantastic. That's exactly what should happen. Everyone is engaged. But, if you only have 3 PC's out of 9 that can hit the creature, those 3 PC's better be doing LOTS of damage.

Balor kills PC with magic weapon and picks up the weapon, next round teleports away and drops it somewhere. Comes back the round after that and starts killing the next PC with a magic weapon. Wash rinse, repeat.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Fantastic. That's exactly what should happen. Everyone is engaged. But, if you only have 3 PC's out of 9 that can hit the creature, those 3 PC's better be doing LOTS of damage.

Balor kills PC with magic weapon and picks up the weapon, next round teleports away and drops it somewhere. Comes back the round after that and starts killing the next PC with a magic weapon. Wash rinse, repeat.

PC sees that Balor sheathed his flaming sword to pick up a +1 shortsword, uses Sleight of Hand to steal it. When Balor teleports back, he gets hit with his own sword.

And the PC he "killed" is fighting again, thanks to Healing Word and/or Revivify.

 

[ExploderWizard]

PC sees that Balor sheathed his flaming sword to pick up a +1 shortsword, uses Sleight of Hand to steal it. When Balor teleports back, he gets hit with his own sword.

And the PC he "killed" is fighting again, thanks to Healing Word and/or Revivify.

Sleight of hand to steal a sword from an alert and enraged balor? Try a STR contest. No way that goes unnoticed.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sleight of hand to steal a sword from an alert and enraged balor? Try a STR contest. No way that goes unnoticed.

The Balor's hands are full, one way or another. He can't control three weapons at once.