D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[Hussar]

The Balor's hands are full, one way or another. He can't control three weapons at once.

He's not attacking. He doesn't have to control them. He just has to hold them. Are you honestly saying it's impossible to hold two swords at the same time? Note, he doesn't have have to hold it to teleport away. He just has to touch it. Heck, he stands on the sword and teleports away and it comes with him.

This is exactly my point. In these conversations, the counter arguments are based on such bizarre readings and interpretations. Lines of sight measured out to a mile? Sure, if your outdoors looks like a golf course. A 3 foot rise with 2 foot tall grass on it gives 100% concealment. And cover. Our Balor has 120 foot vision. Teleport into the party, (because I can see you before you see me) use my surprise round to fly 30 feet in the air, grab the wizard with my whip, hit him with my sword, fly another 30 feet in the air and let go. Dead wizard before the fight has even started. Fly away and repeat the tactic a few more times, killing the cleric next.

Only issue here might be, can the balor turn off his own flames. That's not in the book, AFAIK, so, this tactic would rely on a DM saying that he can control his fire aura.

Or, hey, it's a balor. Why not have some burning pits scattered around the room? There are a million things that the DM could do here that would make this fight extremely deadly.

But, yeah, when your fights are in empty arenas, then sure, the party is going to be a lot stronger.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

He's not attacking. He doesn't have to control them. He just has to hold them. Are you honestly saying it's impossible to hold two swords at the same time? Note, he doesn't have have to hold it to teleport away. He just has to touch it. Heck, he stands on the sword and teleports away and it comes with him.

If he just stands on it, another PC will pick it up.

You're asserting that a Balor can make two attacks, killing a PC, then retrieve the PC's dropped magic weapon and hold it and his own sword (in one hand? jammed under his armpit?) and his whip in a way which is so totally secure that no one can possibly contest his control of any of the three weapons.

Yeah, no. In fact, the Balor only has +8 to Athletics. By DMG rules, not only do you have a pretty good chance at taking a weapon held under his armpit, you also have a pretty decent chance at disarming him with a plain old Disarm maneuver from a proficient fighter (Athletics +11), much less a Valor Bard with Athletics Expertise (Athletics +17). And that's without even Hexing the Balor's Strength or Enhancing the Bard's Strength. Once the Balor loses both his weapons he's reduced to pretty much pounding on people with his fists, unless he can take his weapons back, and the action economy sure doesn't favor him there.

Plus, the Balor's teleport doesn't move items he's standing on, anyway. He has to be wearing or carrying them.

This is exactly my point. In these conversations, the counter arguments are based on such bizarre readings and interpretations. *snip* Our Balor has 120 foot vision. Teleport into the party, (because I can see you before you see me) use my surprise round to fly 30 feet in the air, grab the wizard with my whip, hit him with my sword, fly another 30 feet in the air and let go. Dead wizard before the fight has even started. Fly away and repeat the tactic a few more times, killing the cleric next.

"I can see you [the wizard] before you can see me?" Why is the wizard the point man in the dark scary dungeon, and not the Rogue/Ranger/Shadow Monk?

Apparently your table has never heard of either scouting or Stealth. Don't you even post pickets? Even smoke mephits would do (they can light up the Balor with Dancing Lights once he's spotted so he's visible at arbitrary distances), not to mention an actual stealthy PC. A Balor's passive perception is only 13, not much chance he'll spot anyone trained in Stealth. If he sees anyone it's probably the clanky Paladin in plate armor, who is exactly whom you want him to see and attack.

The tactics probably just look "bizarre" to you because you're playing a simpler and more straightforward game. Aren't you the one who said your "standard" encounter is "kick down the door, roll for initiative"?

 

[Mercurius]

I only read the first page of this thread, but I've got to say that this makes me like 5E even more. It means that the curve really is more gradual, that bounded accuracy works.

5E, for the first time in 40 years of D&D, addressed something that has always bothered me about D&D - the steep curve of power increase that required a campaign world to be artificially separated, as if certain regions only had low level creatures, certain mid-level, and others high level. I don't have a problem with this kind of segregation, as long as it can be permeable. But D&D pre-5E simply didn't allow for the cinematic, literary style of fantasy where the farm boy could slay the Dark Lord at the end of the book. Now it does.

 

[shoak1]

Tactics arguments are pointless. So what if you can beat him using xyz tactics, or that some other guy can beat you w/ abc tactics. We are talking about CR ratings. Stats. Period.

The MM balor is listed as CR 19 and is nowhere near that tough, certainly not enough to provide so much as a speed bump to a party of L19 PCs, assuming equal tactical prowess by players/DM. A single L19 PC's stats/abilities/features are way superior. And there are innumerable other examples of inaccurately CR rated monsters in the MM.

I think rather than digressing into 32 different ways that a balor could pwn or get pwnd by PCs of such and such level, perhaps identifying other poorly rated monsters in the MM might be a better endeavor.

 

[Hussar]

The only reason that the CR19 creature isn't that tough is because some DM's have the creature stand out in the middle of open fields, and only attack those with the most HP. Never minding that with 9 characters, a single CR 19 creature actually isn't that deadly of an encounter. CR is a predictive system. The farther you move away form baseline assumptions, the less able the system is to predict outcomes.

I mean, you've got [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] here ruling that you can't hold (not attack, just hold) two swords in one hand and teleport away. That will certainly impact tactics. He mentions a passive perception of 13 but ignores the 120 foot true sight, meaning that no one will ever sneak up on him. No hiding if the baddy has direct line of sight to you and with 120 foot true sight, nothing is going to not be in line of sight. So, I don't snatch the wizard, I snatch the scout and eat him first. Ok. You're going to try to sneak up on something like this? Good luck.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The only reason that the CR19 creature isn't that tough is because some DM's have the creature stand out in the middle of open fields, and only attack those with the most HP. Never minding that with 9 characters, a single CR 19 creature actually isn't that deadly of an encounter. CR is a predictive system. The farther you move away form baseline assumptions, the less able the system is to predict outcomes.

I mean, you've got @Hemlock here ruling that you can't hold (not attack, just hold) two swords in one hand and teleport away. That will certainly impact tactics. He mentions a passive perception of 13 but ignores the 120 foot true sight, meaning that no one will ever sneak up on him. No hiding if the baddy has direct line of sight to you and with 120 foot true sight, nothing is going to not be in line of sight. So, I don't snatch the wizard, I snatch the scout and eat him first. Ok. You're going to try to sneak up on something like this? Good luck.

Hussar, stop the straw men. You're just making yourself look silly by claiming things about my game that aren't true. "Stand out in the middle of open fields" indeed. I didn't say you couldn't teleport while holding two swords in one hand--I said that if you pick up a sword after killing a PC, the PCs have a full round to take that sword from you, and suggested that Sleight of Hand and/or Disarm (Athletics check per DMG) would work at my table, especially because trying to juggle three weapons in two hands is ​awkward.

And you're misunderstanding what truesight does--it doesn't negate Stealth. See MM page 9 for what it actually does.

How would you like it if I went around misrepresenting your game to other people? Do you think I couldn't come up with equivalent lies about your game if I wanted to stoop to your level? "There are some DMs like Hussar who will just let a Balor autocrit a PC for triple damage every round with no rolls because that's more dramatic." You'd be like, "What?!? No I don't!" and rightfully so. Don't misrepresent my game please.

 

[Hussar]

Do you need concealment to use stealth? If true sight sees in both normal and magical darkness, what concealment does your shadow monk have?

Funny how you start encounters at a mile away, but, apparently, you PC's can hide in plain sight.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Do you need concealment to use stealth? If true sight sees in both normal and magical darkness, what concealment does your shadow monk have?

Funny how you start encounters at a mile away, but, apparently, you PC's can hide in plain sight.

I start many overland encounters a mile away--but obviously a Balor isn't going to surprise anyone in an overland encounter because of his big flaming fiery aura, so we're obviously not talking about overland encounters. Clearly we're talking about a dungeon encounter where the PCs are taking the initiative to venture into some scary area where there are monsters and demons, and in that case of course they have a scout on point, like they always do in underground mode. (Actually, SOP is two scouts, so they can cover each other. This policy developed after they let the Lore Bard scout ahead alone once and he got stunned and almost eaten by a chain worm.)

And Stealth works against truesight exactly the same way it does in broad daylight: you take advantage of obstructions and total cover. Truesight isn't X-ray vision.

 

[Prism]

The MM balor is listed as CR 19 and is nowhere near that tough, certainly not enough to provide so much as a speed bump to a party of L19 PCs, assuming equal tactical prowess by players/DM. A single L19 PC's stats/abilities/features are way superior. And there are innumerable other examples of inaccurately CR rated monsters in the MM.

I think rather than digressing into 32 different ways that a balor could pwn or get pwnd by PCs of such and such level, perhaps identifying other poorly rated monsters in the MM might be a better endeavor.

The balor is certainly weak compared to similar creatures such as the marilith or pit fiend. I would

• Add an extra sword attack
• Make the sword a vorpal weapon like it was in the past
• Use the demon summoning rules

 

[S'mon]

I only read the first page of this thread, but I've got to say that this makes me like 5E even more. It means that the curve really is more gradual, that bounded accuracy works.

5E, for the first time in 40 years of D&D, addressed something that has always bothered me about D&D - the steep curve of power increase that required a campaign world to be artificially separated, as if certain regions only had low level creatures, certain mid-level, and others high level. I don't have a problem with this kind of segregation, as long as it can be permeable. But D&D pre-5E simply didn't allow for the cinematic, literary style of fantasy where the farm boy could slay the Dark Lord at the end of the book. Now it does.

Yeah, I also love it that last session my 5th-7th level PC group nearly got killed by 7 regular
hobgoblins with a captain giving them +2 to hit; attacking at +5 for 12 damage per hit,
the PCs took dozens of damage!