D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Its best to just figure encounters pre 3e style. Know your party and put in foes accordingly. Now XP is another issue though.

 

[the Jester]

Its best to just figure encounters pre 3e style. Know your party and put in foes accordingly. Now XP is another issue though.

I actually do something similar- I plan my foes according to the setting. If there's a tribe of 200 orcs living in Orc Valley, it doesn't matter what level you are- there are 200 orcs there.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Did you remember not to let the barb apply his damage resistance against the balor's attacks?

If he's a barbearian, it doesn't matter, he has resistance even to magic weapon attacks.

 

[the Jester]

If he's a barbearian, it doesn't matter, he has resistance even to magic weapon attacks.

Oh damn, I just checked and you're right. I have been misremembering this for a long time now- I probably conflated it with the Heavy Armor Mastery damage soaking.

 

[Celtavian]

I actually do something similar- I plan my foes according to the setting. If there's a tribe of 200 orcs living in Orc Valley, it doesn't matter what level you are- there are 200 orcs there.

I do it both ways. Plan encounters by setting and specifically to challenge party, depending on where they are and what they're doing.

 

[Hussar]

lets see - comparing him to a L19 fighter battlemaster, assuming feats and magic items
PC AC 24-26, Balor AC 19
PC has 242 hp (267 hp counting 2nd wind), Balor 262 hp
PC gets 3 attacks, Balor gets 2
PC gets +13 to hit so hits Balor 75% of the time, Balor gets +14 so hits 50% of time
PC does 14 dmg.on hit, Balor does 30 dmg.
so if they just went up and slugged it out, they would each kill each other on the 9th round on average.

Hang on. Isn't this pretty much exactly the way it should be? A CR 19 creature vs a solo level 19 character ends in a draw. Sounds about right. A 19th level party isn't supposed to have any problem with this encounter. They are supposed to cakewalk it and about six more just like it per day. Not seeing the problem.

PC gets action surge, a couple msc.feats, 6d12 dice for maneuvers...Balor gets teleport, fly, aura...thats alla bout a wash

so maybe it all comes down to the party composition and monster composition...a solo balor w/o healing is not gonna do so well against a balanced L7 party w/healing....just like a solo L19 fighter could be taken down by a balanced group of L7 baddies prolly

If this is true, then there isn't much of an issue with CR is there?

Yep. Not even close to a medium challenge for a CR19 party.

What do yo think the results of a medium challenge are supposed to be? A medium challenge should rarely, if ever, see more than the expenditure of some renewable resources. A solo balor vs a 19th level party should be a speed bump. It's no different than dropping a single CR 2 creature on a 2nd level party.

 

[S'mon]

Its best to just figure encounters pre 3e style. Know your party and put in foes accordingly. Now XP is another issue though.

Yup, using groups of monsters helps but the game definitely seems to work best overall with a pre-3e approach to encounters - let the players determine if they want to face the Balor and
don't worry too much about what threat level it's supposed to be.

XP - by-the-book generally works; it can be cut down if ridiculously excessive.
BTB a Balor is worth 22,000 xp. Deadly for a 9th level party is 2400 each. You could halve the Balor xp award to bring it more into line with actual threat level (making it more like CR 14).
Or you could just use the pg 82 chart and say 'this was a deadly encounter for my level 9
group, 2400 xp each'. Personally for my online 5e game though I'd probably just give
full xp; maybe I wouldn't give much or any non-combat xp that session, and it'd soon
even up. I generally find the main issue with 5e is to give reasonable xp for sessions
where the PCs are doing important stuff but there is no or trivial combat. Something like
a medium encounter's worth per hour of play or per achievement (eg looting a treasure
hoard) works well.

 

[Celtavian]

What do yo think the results of a medium challenge are supposed to be? A medium challenge should rarely, if ever, see more than the expenditure of some renewable resources. A solo balor vs a 19th level party should be a speed bump. It's no different than dropping a single CR 2 creature on a 2nd level party.

Are you seriously trying to argue that CR19 is appropriate for a Balor? The current version of the Balor would be a speed bump for a level 10 party.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's no different than dropping a single CR 2 creature on a 2nd level party.

In theory, yes.

In practice, I would not express myself so categorically, given the existence of this thread...

 

[frankthedm]

Hang on. Isn't this pretty much exactly the way it should be? A CR 19 creature vs a solo level 19 character ends in a draw. Sounds about right.

No. It is not right. A CR 19 is supposed to take on the whole party, challenge them, but not typically kill anyone. Vs. one level 19 character, CR 19 should be significantly favored.

2nd level character should definitely fall to an ogre.


On the other hand,anyone else think DMG CR-ing rules might be undervaluing monsters that would deliver damage via saves?