D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[Eric V]

I've also had a CR 15 mummy lord humiliated by level 7 characters. It doesn't matter how many cool abilities it has (and it does have some doozies), 97 hit points + vulnerability to fire means it's going down hard. Nowhere near a CR 15 challenge.

Steve

Good catch. I was hoping to use one later on; maybe I will accelerate those plans.

In another thread, we're discussing how the Rakshasa is not really a CR 13 monster either.

 

[Hussar]

No. It is not right. A CR 19 is supposed to take on the whole party, challenge them, but not typically kill anyone. Vs. one level 19 character, CR 19 should be significantly favored.

2nd level character should definitely fall to an ogre.


On the other hand,anyone else think DMG CR-ing rules might be undervaluing monsters that would deliver damage via saves?

Cr 2 is maybe a bad example. But, it's not like our fighter-Balor example is that far off either. It's going to come down to the dice.

If 4 or 5 10th level PC's are cake walking a Balor, otoh, I'm wondering if that might not be a table specific issue.

 

[shoak1]

Hang on. Isn't this pretty much exactly the way it should be? A CR 19 creature vs a solo level 19 character ends in a draw. Sounds about right. A 19th level party isn't supposed to have any problem with this encounter. They are supposed to cakewalk it and about six more just like it per day. Not seeing the problem.

I went to the math initially expecting it to support my contention it was undervalued, but it seemed to prove the opposite. Hence the conclusion in my post that bounded accuracy is HARD at work and party/baddy team composition is really big (something mentioned by other posters). So solo BBGs=pwnage regardless of CR level (unless the DM's tactical skill level is much better than the players').

It feels weird cuz its not like 4th (solo BBGs=pwn) but not like 3.5 either (bounded acc). It's like a whole new edition lol.

 

[Azurewraith]

I must admit that when ever i run a solo i go for more 4e system where i give them a bonus action to use every round even if its just an off hand attack and a powerfull reaction.

An example is i ran ochu style enemy from final fantasy it had long vines it could it would grapple with then use its bonus action to drag PCs in dealing auto damage, If it was hit it released a nasty spore cloud that infected the Pcs with its seeds that caused them to slowly turn to wood. Its all about action economy when it boils down to 1vx

 

[Ahrimon]

Remember that the fighter vs Balor assumes that the fighter doesn't have magic items or feats. The game is presented as balanced for no optional rules (magic items, feats, multi-classing, etc). Adding those things decreases the challenge of the monsters as presented. I'm not arguing that the Balor's CR is correct, but it's something to remember when looking at how much of a challenge it actually presents.

 

[Iosue]

+3 full plate, +3 shield, ring of protection, defense style = ac 28, i am assuming not maxed out hence 24-26

The problem is that CR doesn't assume any magic items, let alone legendary armor or shield, let alone legendary armor AND a legendary shield. I mean, a fighter with that kind of bling should be a match for a balor. Which is not to say that it is worthless if you give your characters magic items -- there's some play there. Merely that it's not designed with the assumption that characters will be blinged out like that.

Also, was your calculation taking into account the balor's fire aura? Because it seems to me that, even with the AC you've chosen, in a slug out the fighter should be taking an extra 32 points of damage (10 + 7.5 + 7.5 + 7.5, rounded down) per round. 62 damage per round should drop the fighter in 5 rounds. The fighter does 31 points of damage per round, which means it takes him 9 rounds to kill the Balor. Actually, more rounds. I calculate the fighter's damage as +1 longsword (average damage 5) + 5 (damage bonus) plus superiority die (average damage 6), for 16 points of damage, but only for six attacks (two rounds). At 70% chance to hit, that's 11 points per attack, so 33 points for the first two rounds (66 total), at which point he runs out of superiority dice. After that he's only doing an average of 10 points per attack -- three attacks at 7 average damage is 21 points per round. That's another 10 rounds, for 12 total. We can go ahead and give him a +3 longsword, but it's still 10 rounds total. He's going to need the additive effects of at least three mates to spread out the damage and bring that number down to 4 or 5 rounds.

Of course, if we go with the no magic item assumption of CR, the fighter's looking at an AC of 21 (plate, shield, protection style), which means the balor's hitting 70% of the time, so the balor's doing 41 + 32 points of damage per round, and dropping the fighter in 4 rounds, while the fighter is now only doing half damage per round (resistance to non-magical weapons), and it takes him over 20 rounds to drop the balor.

I dunno. It sounds to me like CR as a baseline is working fine. Some groups with lots of magic items and/or synergistic teamwork are going to have a relatively easy time. Others without so much magic or optimized teamwork are going to have a bit more trouble. A lower level group with 6 characters is going to have a much easier time. Sounds like a Medium to me.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Yup, using groups of monsters helps but the game definitely seems to work best overall with a pre-3e approach to encounters - let the players determine if they want to face the Balor and
don't worry too much about what threat level it's supposed to be.

Sure, but I was more going for don't assume that CR is anywhere close to perfect or suitable for the particular party.

 

[Celtavian]

Cr 2 is maybe a bad example. But, it's not like our fighter-Balor example is that far off either. It's going to come down to the dice.

If 4 or 5 10th level PC's are cake walking a Balor, otoh, I'm wondering if that might not be a table specific issue.

Another instance of you claiming a table specific issue. It isn't. Analyze the balor. It's easy to see why it isn't close to a CR19. No AoE. No crowd control. All it does it damage. Damage other creatures that are way lower level. A Balor isn't close to CR 19. Not at all.

I'd bet money a non-min/maxer group of level 10 characters could roll over a balor easily. A Pit Fiend is closer to its CR. Balor is badly built.

 

[Scorpio616]

Balor is badly built.

Anyone break down the balor's math in this thread yet?

 

[Celtavian]

Anyone break down the balor's math in this thread yet?

Shoak I believe.