crystal spheres ?

[Shemeska]

and whether each of the normal base settings are in one big prime material or on separate alternate prime material planes.

The Prime is the Prime. One plane, many worlds/spheres/planets/etc.

Planescape tended to give lip service to the SJ material, but mostly it just didn't concern itself with the particulars of the prime material plane's makeup. The various worlds of the prime material, however they were arranged, still pumped out petitioners and belief that molded and shaped the Outer Planes, and of course, they provided all manner of mortal planewalkers, be they informed or clueless. If you look hard enough you'll find the occasional overt SJ reference, like an illithid squidship that was packed up and imported into Sigil, or references to the neogi, etc. The whole "alternate material planes" wierdness was never there as far as I remember, though it now occasionally pops up in 3e material.

Now in the case of 3e material, it seems entirely author dependant. Some authors refer to different worlds as seperate material planes (mostly very early on in 3e), and others (increasingly now) refer to them as seperate planets/worlds within a single prime material. Now that stuff isn't hamstrung by having to only refer to "core" gods and personages, we're finally seeing references to multiple pantheons and a full use of the cosmology rather than tiptoeing around anything not directly linked to Greyhawk's gods, be that Kali in the Abyss, Set in Baator, the titan progenitors of the Olympian pantheon in Carceri, Loki in Pandemonium, etc.

With all of that detail now fully open for use, having seperate worlds be entirely seperate prime material planes makes no sense at all (yes I'm looking at you Toril). In what material I've written, or published stuff that I've had an influence in the editing of, I refer to different worlds as different worlds/planets rather than different prime material planes entirely. That's the syntax I prefer, and the cosmological model I prefer.

 

[3catcircus]

Still wondering I guess how this kind of concept integrates with planescape, but I guess I'm starting to get the picture. I'm a theoretical physicist/cosmologist IRL, so this kind of question really gets at me.

Hmm. Really, the best way to describe the crystal spheres is that they are sorta-kinda-like both a solar system and a galaxy.

For example, Realmspace (Forgotten Realms) consists of the planets Anadia, Coliar, Toril, Karpri, Chandos, Glyth, Garden, and H'Catha (in that order out from the sun) that orbit around the Sun, while a comet (K'thoutek) orbits perpendicular to the solar plane, as well as the Color Spray and Galleon Nebulae.

Other crystal spheres have similar make-ups - planets orbiting a star along with other cosmological "stuff" - nebulae, asteroid belts, etc.

On spelljammer.org, you can find "flow maps" - i.e. how the different crystal spheres are connected via the phlogiston. And this is where the overlap between spheres, phlogiston and planes comes in to play. In order to get from Krynnspace to Realmspace, you either have to go through Greyspace (Greyhawk) or Bralspace (the crossroads of the phlogistons). However, based upon the phologiston, you can't get directly from Greyspace to Bralspace while staying on the prime material plane - either go through Krynnspace or Realmspace, or via planar travel.

Planescape is basically (as I view it), more "dimensions" than the familiar 4 involved in the prime. Basically, the planes are "concepts" that combine aspects of ancient beliefs in the 4 elements and humours, and the ideas of a specific plane being the embodiment of a specific alignment - a realm of pure evil, pure good, etc. In fact, planar travel may not involve physical transportation at all - such as in the case of astrally projecting into the astral plane.

 

[Maldin]

The Prime is the Prime. One plane, many worlds/spheres/planets/etc.
Planescape tended to give lip service to the SJ material, but mostly it just didn't concern itself with the particulars of the prime material plane's makeup....

What Shemeska said.

Myself, I'm a scientific-minded DM (actually, I'm a scientist) that has no problem with SJ's crystal spheres. I do have problems with superglue, though. Seems every time I go looking for a tube in a drawer, it has all hardened into one solid glob and I have to go buy another.

Anyways, the SJ campaign describes a single material plane, composed not of a an endless flat surface, or giant planetoid-orbs floating in air/vacuum/fire/whatever, or endless caverns in an otherwise solid volume (all examples of different planes described in various products), but composed of an endless volume of phlogiston with large, hollow crystal spheres which contain solar systems. According to the original description of the multiverse (1E and essentially maintained in 2E), there is only one Abyss (for example) and is the same place if you leave from Greyhawk or the Realms.

It essentially takes inter-planar magic to travel from sphere to sphere (even though its the same Prime, and some spheres are even further protected). Since John Doe merchant usually doesn't have access to that type of magic (high level PCs and NPCs should be very rare!), and you can't use plane-crossing Teleport without Error (which has error sphere-to-sphere!) to carry a shipload of goods, spelljamming developed to cross the spheres. I think Planescape (which did come later) with its description of the multiverse has no problem co-existing with the Spelljammer setting... if the DM wants it too. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Portals? Well, even in the most portal-crazy Planescape campaign, a PC/NPC may find a portal to a plane that they want to travel to, if they search long and hard enough, and bribe enough berks (sorry), but the likelyhood of find a portal going to the exact place you want to go to? Slim.

One of my problems with 3E is the one a previous poster already stated... rather then a unified multiverse, individual authors have (selfishly, I contend) thrown care for continuity to the winds and dreamed up entirely independent, mutually exclusive and incompatible multiverses for each of the separate campaign "worlds". Thats not what I want for my multiverse. Not to say any particular view is good or bad. If you want a unified multiverse, use the 1E/2E Great Wheel, within which both Planescape and Spelljammer can coexist just fine. If you prefer one of the specialized multiverses of the 3E settings, go with that, but it may be more difficult to incorporate PS and SJ materials.

Go with the campaign you want. Depending on your version of choice, the rules can either accomodate what you want, or can be modified to do so.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... magic, mysteries, maps, mechanics, and more.

 

[Calion]

*Casts Resurrect Thread*

Okay, I'm with you that there's only one Prime Material Plane (or only one per campaign?). But then, where is Earth? Earth canonically exists in D&D. Elminster has visited it, PCs in certain modules visited it, etc. So where is it? Is our world in its own crystal sphere? If so, how big is it? Has Voyager run into it yet?

 

[AnimeSniper]

I remember one session where our party had to find and destroy a Necromancer who was terrorizing a small mountainous valley country and said necromancer always carried these baseball sized crystal spheres that when broken unleashed the spirit/soul of some slain creature or NPC... long story the final death of the necromancer happened after he/she raised all the slain souls and bodily remains of a forgotten battlefield.

As to the standard each Crystal Sphere represents a particular planar element I also look at it from the viewpoint of the traditional Multi-Parallel World/Dimension theorem where each has slight differences from known historical events and whatnot. Sort of like Sliders so the party from a fantasy setting ala D&D could somehow be transported to a D20 Modern/Future setting with only humans as the primary race.

Each MPWD could be colored slightly different, dark red with silver blue flecks for example.

 

[Nagol]

*Casts Resurrect Thread*

Okay, I'm with you that there's only one Prime Material Plane (or only one per campaign?). But then, where is Earth? Earth canonically exists in D&D. Elminster has visited it, PCs in certain modules visited it, etc. So where is it? Is our world in its own crystal sphere? If so, how big is it? Has Voyager run into it yet?

In 1e there are alternate Prime Material Planes as pointed out by the PHB. There was at least one non-canon adventure published in Dragon that sent the adventurers to "Earth" to retrieve something from modern day London. The DMG discusses throwing the PCs into another continuum to another game or setting as well.

 

[Calion]

In 1e there are alternate Prime Material Planes as pointed out by the PHB. There was at least one non-canon adventure published in Dragon that sent the adventurers to "Earth" to retrieve something from modern day London. The DMG discusses throwing the PCs into another continuum to another game or setting as well.

That's one way to do it, but that's not consistent with others, earlier in the thread, who said that there's only one Material Plane.


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[Nagol]

That's one way to do it, but that's not consistent with others, earlier in the thread, who said that there's only one Material Plane.


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They are approaching it from different perspectives. I'm just reporting what the original 1e material actually presented. Though I made a mistake: the diagram in the PHB does not indicate the alternate primes; I know I've seen it somewhere in 1e material.

The actual text from the PHB regarding parallel worlds is

There exist an infinite number of parallel universes and planes of existence in the fantastic "multiverse" of ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS. All of these "worlds" co-exist, but how "real" each is depends entirely upon the development of each by the campaign referee. The chart and explanations which follow show only the various planes tied to that of normal existence. The parallel universes are not shown, and their existence might or might not be actual.