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Cultural Appropriation in role-playing games (draft)

Celebrim

Legend
You seem to be completely unaware that there are Arabian people that aren't of the Islamic faith, such as the Yazidis. I think it's your article that's "vaguely pop-culture."

Or that the Islamic faith didn't come into being until the 7th century, and before that there were all sorts of religious traditions in the Middle East, some of which are still around. Or that the tales from the Arabian Nights themselves in many ways resemble Beowulf, in that Beowulf is a story adapted during the middle of a culture in transition, and the story of Beowulf is a half-Christianized version of an older oral story from a pre-Christian culture and that likewise the Arabian Nights stories are compiled from stories collected all around the Indian Ocean basin and appropriated as partially converted Islamic literature. And then those tales were then appropriated and compiled by non-Arabic peoples into new collections containing new tales and framing, so that there is no 'authentic' Tales of the Arabian Nights. And those tales were appropriated back in and then out again and so forth, until no one knows or can unravel the full history of the text and state which culture actually owns which story, and which one is authentic and which one was a sort of 'minstrel show' itself trying to subtly demean or make pointed barbs toward or mock Arab and Islamic culture.

The most famous stories of the cycle - Aladdin, Ali Baba, Sinbad - are in fact, if the French translator is to be believed, the product of a Marionite Christian oral story teller (if in fact the French 'translator' didn't just make them up). This oral story teller got no credit for the European best seller, but then again the French guy Galland also was cheated out of his work, as editions appeared with his name on it that he got no money for.

And that's to not even get into the bigger problem that no living person in the Middle East could properly claim to be the authentic guardian of the culture that produced the Tales of the Arabian knights, any more than any living person in American could properly claim to be the authentic guardian of Beowulf, because the cultures that produce both stories no longer exist. No one is a native speaker of Old English any more. No one really comes from pre-Norman Conquest half-Christianized Anglo-Saxon Medieval Europe. When you start claiming you personally own centuries old intellectual property out of some theory of communal intellectual property, you are advancing a theory of ownership that is based entirely on your feelings of kinship and not any reality of kinship much less reality of ownership. You yourself took no part in creating the intellectual property, yet you want to claim that you are somehow owed veto over how it is used based on vague self-identification. Your own culture probably buried the original culture that produced the art, yet somehow you claim you are entitled by some long right of blood to this art whose roots are actual alien to you. I'm reminded of the black suburban New Hampshire woman who grew up entirely north of the Mason-Dixon that accused me of cultural appropriation because the 'cotton fields' were her cultural heritage, negligent of the fact that my own mother dragged 100lb sacks of cotton through the red mud of Arkansas a child to help keep the family from literally starving when my grandfather was infirmed. Neither her nor I actually knew anything about the reality of picking cotton, but if proximity to poor sharecroppers is to be the test, I win hands down.

Anyone ever seen the credit card commercial where the family goes to Norway to explore their heritage, and it turns out they aren't Norwegian but Finns (or Swedes, or some such). And then they have to divest themselves of their literal ownership of Norwegian cultural trappings, get out the credit card and buy a new cultural identity? A good example of this would be my own life.

For my whole childhood I was raised with the cultural heritage of a Scot. I thought, childishly, that to some extent things about Scots were things about me, and conversely I was in some way entitled to being called Scottish by right of my birth. I had a proud Scot heritage, from the Wallaces, Burns, and Reynolds in my ancestry. Problem is, it was all based on a lie. When my family traced back its ancestry, it turned out that we were descend from two brothers who immigrated to the United States back in the 18th century. The brothers knew that in 18th century America, Irish people would have more limited opportunities that more privileged races like English and Scots, so they decided that they could pass themselves off as Scots. The told everyone that they were Scots, and were accepted into high social circles where they married well and were successful businessmen. They told their own wives they were Scots and not filthy Irishmen. They definitely told their wives parents. They told their children they were Scots. And they told their children, and they told their children. Their ancestors were still telling this to people to avoid anti-Irish discrimination in the mid-20th century, long after anyone remembered that it was a lie. In fact, I'm positive that some of my ancestors probably would have never agreed to marry a filthy Irishman. Irony, huh?

So what am I, a Scot or an Irish? Does the question or its answer even have meaning? Is either in this context even really 'a thing'? And regardless of the ancestry, would my inheritance of the heritage give anyone else a veto power over being inspired by the culture, art, and history of either nation? And what about growing up in Jamaica? Does speaking Petwa, and eating patties, box drink, and spice buns for lunch make me Jamaican enough to appropriate the stories of my childhood without asking permission?
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Yes, I could. I chose not to. I am more critiquing the presentation of the piece - places where depictions are inaccurate, logic is flawed, phrasing is apt to have unfortunate results, and the like. I'm aiming for constructive criticism, mostly to help Grumpy improve the piece, rather than to tear it up and reject it.

Ok, I can understand that.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I think it would be fun to see an actual Japanese or Chinese Western (as in, American style cowboys, hats and six-shooters and all).

The 4-colour superhero genre seems like one which isn't as widely used worldwide as it might be, given its current popularity.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It may be telling that (at least, as I understand it) the original term was "cultural misappropriation" - which admits there are ways of accepting things from other cultures that are okay, and ways that aren't. By dropping the "mis-", it implies there is *no* acceptable way for cultures to exchange, and I find that questionable, unrealistic, and again problematic.

I am following up on my own post, because a potentially useful example came to mind, while I was eating lunch. Specifically, my lunchbox.

I often bring my lunch to work, and when I do, it is almost always in a Bento box. Bento is clearly of Japanese origin, and has been part of the culture for hundreds of years. I am not of Asian, much less specifically Japanese, descent. Clearly, I have adopted (or borrowed, or appropriated - which word applies?) it from another culinary tradition and culture.

So, with my lunchbox, I'm engaging in hate speech? I find that difficult to understand. I *like* my lunchbox. I find it to be a clever, attractive (it is painted in a green wood/bamboo grain pattern), and convenient way to bring a modest-sized meal for one person, composed of several dishes, to work. How can my appreciating a good idea from someone else, and putting it to regular use, be considered hateful?

I did a bit of reading on Bento when I picked up the box, learned a bit of the kinds of foods commonly presented in this way, and why. And I don't parade around, going, "Woo, lookit me, my lunch is all *Japanese*! I'm a lunch ninja!" or anything stupid like that. Sometimes I carry traditional foods (tamagoyaki is tasty), but sometimes it is leftover Indian food (my wife and I learned how to make our own paneer, because the stuff in our nearby markets is kinda nasty), or taco rice. Or just leftovers. My lunch is pretty multicultural, come to think of it. Calling it hate speech seems.... excessive in the extreme.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Ok, the tl;dr version of all my posts.

A person can see a legitimate problem, and come up with an absolutely ridiculous illegitimate 'solution' that actually is as bad as the problem.

Hammering again and a again on the reality of the problem, in no way justifies the solution. "But the problem is real!", doesn't mean that this is the solution.

Nor is it the case that disagreement with the proposed solution in any way implies a lack of awareness with the problem.

If you are going to write an essay on 'cultural appropriation', you have to move beyond simply insulting everyone that doesn't agree by categorically placing them in the role of Evil Others, and repeating continually bad things that have happened. You have to show that that the solution is workable and has a positive outcome. In particular, you have to ask whether the elaborate theory you've constructed as a way to view the world has any added value, and is any more workable, than the more easily explained and hopefully less controversial theory that we ought to just treat each other with respect - particularly when a quick glance at socio-political theories shows that elaborate theories usually are ways to justify to yourself not treating others with respect.
 

I am following up on my own post, because a potentially useful example came to mind, while I was eating lunch. Specifically, my lunchbox.

I often bring my lunch to work, and when I do, it is almost always in a Bento box. Bento is clearly of Japanese origin, and has been part of the culture for hundreds of years. I am not of Asian, much less specifically Japanese, descent. Clearly, I have adopted (or borrowed, or appropriated - which word applies?) it from another culinary tradition and culture.

So, with my lunchbox, I'm engaging in hate speech? I find that difficult to understand. I *like* my lunchbox. I find it to be a clever, attractive (it is painted in a green wood/bamboo grain pattern), and convenient way to bring a modest-sized meal for one person, composed of several dishes, to work. How can my appreciating a good idea from someone else, and putting it to regular use, be considered hateful?

I did a bit of reading on Bento when I picked up the box, learned a bit of the kinds of foods commonly presented in this way, and why. And I don't parade around, going, "Woo, lookit me, my lunch is all *Japanese*! I'm a lunch ninja!" or anything stupid like that. Sometimes I carry traditional foods (tamagoyaki is tasty), but sometimes it is leftover Indian food (my wife and I learned how to make our own paneer, because the stuff in our nearby markets is kinda nasty), or taco rice. Or just leftovers. My lunch is pretty multicultural, come to think of it. Calling it hate speech seems.... excessive in the extreme.

And I think when you start talking about RPGs, cultural borrowing is one of the big engines of setting building. There are better ways and worse ways to do it of course and as Celebrim's video points out borrowing isn't the same as insulting. I try to be sensitive in how I borrow, but this term Cultural Appropriation seems like one those things that everyone has a slightly different definition for and when I try to retroactively apply it to history you have to end up stripping out a lot of great things like rock music (which is appropriation of things like the blues). It often seems to be more about accuracy in depiction than sensitivity. I don't find it particularly helpful when I design. I do find the idea of 'being culturally sensitive" useful, not doing things that are insulting. But borrowing clothing or systems of government, combining different cultural elements, all seem pretty cool to me.

In one of my games I borrowed a lot from Thai culture to create key parts of a fantasy world. I know a bit about Thai history culture but my aim wasn't accuracy, it was to take cool elements and use them to make new things. When I showed it to gamers in Thailand (via the internet, I didn't travel there to show them) they were really happy about it.
 

jimmifett

Banned
Banned
I'd faux rage against "cultural appropriation", but too busy watching blinged out booty-shaking rap videos from descendants of african slaves while waiting for paid anime subscription to stream latest episodes across the globe from a country that had western business concepts forced upon it after national humiliation, while my woman is in kitchen preparing me riceballs and hot dogs made to look like cute octopi. I'm very diversified in my cultural assimilation.

/sarcasm

Yes this is satire, bc the whole concept of Cultural Appropriation is ridiculous to begin with IMO.

And booty-shaking videos are awesome, world needs more of them, tho could do without the rap itself.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
And I think when you start talking about RPGs, cultural borrowing is one of the big engines of setting building.

Yep. It is also one of the big engines of the culinary world - I was using my lunch because it is logically similar to RPGs, but we here are unlikely to have major emotional attachments to my lunch, while our favorite game or setting may bring out defensiveness.



And, "I was using my lunch because it is logically similar to RPGs" is a phrase that may never have been uttered on the planet before :)
 


There has to be a middle point between "Gleefully stereotyping entire cultures out of hate and sense of superiority" and "Not eating sushi unless Japanese".
 

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