Cure Disease will KILL YOU TO DEATH!

[Inyssius]

Bleh. When the PCs want to Raise Dead I'm just going to force them to GO GET HIM in the Shadowfell. Before his soul fades away or is lost. I have maps drawn up (well, smallish map ideas mostly) for the first 3 deaths, as well as some encounter ideas. Make them go get the sucker.

After that gets old they'll make a contact in the Shadowfell, an ally, who will guide the dead soul back for them. When the ritual and everything else with it gets stale and we're working on other stuff and want to just gloss over it.

...You just killed one of my players' characters.

Would you like to share any of those encounter ideas?

 

[mmu1]

Poison no longer poses a serious threat of killing a PC. Neither do what used to be 7th-9th level spells.

...but disease is probably slightly more deadly than before and pretty much the only thing that can render a character non-functional. And that's ok? On top of that, trying to remove it does damage, when you can shrug off the effects of some of the deadliest spells and poisons with a flip of a coin? (Example: A level 14 disease makes you slowed and eventually paralyzes you if you get less than 26 on Endurance checks when taking an extended rest. A 25th level poison that costs over 150,000 gp does 15 points of ongoing damage and weaknes you... until you make a save at no penalty)

I honestly do not get how the same people who say they love how 4E had gotten rid of all the "unfun" stuff are the same ones who think the new Disease and Cure Disease are just great.

I actually think the new disease rules are pretty decent - they just stand out like a huge blinking neon sign among all the other "no longer deadly, merely unpleasant" 4E hazards.

 

[Bagpuss]

For crying out loud, go read the preview again. The only way to die from Cure Disease is if you're already bloodied and the cleric rolls seriously, seriously bad. The danger of character death is instantly averted if you heal the patient's hit points before you go for the disease.

Not if the disease is a higher level than the Heal skill.

 

[WhatGravitas]

But from the common villager with a sick child's point of view, her choices are either (a) let her sick child die from the illness, (b) pay the village healer to kill her child before the illness can, or (c) do absolutely nothing and hope a hero walks into town.

There is nothing wrong with "c" of course, except that it puts my story on rails.

Okay, let's review that. The roll can only kill the target with certainty if you come up with 0 or less. Otherwise it "just" take damage, which can be fixed with a healing surge (perhaps triggered with a Heal check).

So, your roll is Heal - disease level.

The village healer will be trained in it and most probably have skill focus (it's the village healer, after all!). So we get +5 and +3 already = +8 on the check as base. The healer has probably a nice wisdom, let's say 14. We have a +10 bonus.

This means even a normal village healer - without a level - cannot kill its target, if the disease is a 10th level disease or lower - i.e. "appropriate" for heroic level characters (meaning mundane diseases).

After that, you get a 5% chance per extra level. And if you have a sick child with a level 15 disease... well, even a 50% chance of dying OR healing is at that point probably much better than doing nothing, no?

Cheers, LT.

 

[Puggins]

Somewhere out there, Gary Gygax is cackling maniacly and getting ready to blast the passing spirits of newly-dead characters with the words "SYSTEM SHOCK IS BACK, BABY!"

...And I couldn't be happier.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Somewhere out there, Gary Gygax is cackling maniacly and getting ready to blast the passing spirits of newly-dead characters with the words "SYSTEM SHOCK IS BACK, BABY!"

...And I couldn't be happier.

Excellent!

 

[Vorpal Sword]

...You just killed one of my players' characters.

Would you like to share any of those encounter ideas?

Can I suggest the novel Dragon, by Steven Brust? In synopsis, the main character has to go to the underworld to retrieve the trapped soul of a friend's cousin. Hijinks ensue, topped off by a nice bit of ritual magic to get the characters home again.

@ the OP, count me in among the people who don't have a problem with this. Something I didn't see anywhere upthread is that this sort of damage, in an out-of-combat situation, isn't actually a big deal. Any Heal check result above 0 has, as the worst possible consequence, knocking the recipient unconscious (and, as several people have noted, the healer knows in advance if a check result of 0 is possible). Since there's a healer standing right there, and presumably I have at least a short rest available to use my healing surges, even damage = max hp isn't a serious threat.

As I see it, what the rules really do is require the expenditure of time. Most of the time, being healed from a disease will require a short rest for the party; once in a while, if the PC was badly damaged and the healer is less competent, it will require an extended rest. That changes it from a damage problem to a resource management problem, which in my understanding is right in line with the 4e design goals.

EDIT: somehow, the last two paragraphs got lopped off. Fixed now.

 

[Jack99]

Not only do I love, love, love the notion that Cure Disease can prove dangerous, I'm thinking of adding similar rules to some rituals that don't have it already.

It's a great way of adding a little bit of dangerous unpredictability back into magic--one thing that D&D has never done well--without nerfing the casters' combat abilities.

I would buy that book. But make it a book, I am tired of PDF's.

 

[Raduin711]

Well, I guess you could always institute a Heal check so that if your raise dead attempt fails, the victim dies.

*snicker*

 

[Midknightsun]

But from the common villager with a sick child's point of view, her choices are either (a) let her sick child die from the illness, (b) pay the village healer to kill her child before the illness can, or (c) do absolutely nothing and hope a hero walks into town.

There is nothing wrong with "c" of course, except that it puts my story on rails.

Yeah, a dozen other posters answered this before I could, but basically (a) can happen all the time. heroes arent going to be everywhere and sometimes the pleabs will die of disease with no recourse. . . unless the heroes show up and are able to effect a cure. otherwise its moot. Yes, kids, adults and the elderly will die of some diseases. This is somehow unexpected?
(b) nonsensical. if the village healer has no hope of healing the kid, I doubt she'd take the money. Otherwise, the healer would just state that there's a (small to fair) chance the kid may die. Now don't get me wrong, if the child goes to the healer to cure a minor stomach virus and somehow dies that would suck. But purging an ebola level disease should have risks for the mundane and even fairly skilled on an otherwise resilient adult. A small child may not have the resilience to survive the process.
(c) and truthfully, c is the only relevant issue. All the other stuff is off stage and means that, sometimes, diseases will actually kill. I don't see the disconnect here.