Cure Minor on self when disabled

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Mark said:
You shouldn't argue about logic. A statement's validity (or even its usefulness) is not predicated by someone's (anyone's) ability to explain it, least of all to explain it to anyone in particular, such as yourself.

You shouldn't be the post police here. Piratecat has that job.

Course, if you want to add to the RULES DISCUSSION here on the RULES forum, feel free.

In the meantime, why are you just getting free advertising for your web page and not adding to the rules discussion at all? You sound more like a merchant than a player when you do that. Maybe you should get a different account when you want to be Mark the Critical Enforcer as opposed to Mark the Friendly Merchant. The two don't jive. :eek:
 

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RuminDange said:
First my understanding of english is wrong, then the grammar, followed by twisting it around, and finally flawed logic. WHAT ATTACK IS NEXT? Ignore what you like but you cannot debate it in good faith if you attack the debater or ignore the facts before you.

I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your stance, just as you are attacking the stance of KarinsDad. It's called an arguement. There is nothing inherently personal there.

Several points have been made regarding your stance, and you have not acknowledged them. You seem to see any disagreement as a personal attack. You have decided that you are right, and that's that. I think that's it's getting a little too irritable in this thread. I'll be back tomorrow to see if things have calmed down.

Until then, have fun with your houserule. ;)
 

RuminDange said:
Also intersting is the fact that you do not take in effect if the standard action you performed increased your hit points. the hitpoint variable would always be your current value.

Except, of course, that the section in question says nothing about that. ;)

'Round and 'round we go. One side provides proof, the other says "Nuh-uh!"

*sigh* Talk to you guys tomorrow.
 

KarinsDad said:
You shouldn't be the post police here. Piratecat has that job.

Course, if you want to add to the RULES DISCUSSION here on the RULES forum, feel free.

In the meantime, why are you just getting free advertising for your web page and not adding to the rules discussion at all? You sound more like a merchant than a player when you do that. Maybe you should get a different account when you want to be Mark the Critical Enforcer as opposed to Mark the Friendly Merchant. The two don't jive. :eek:

Nice try but side stepping the issue to attack me doesn't change the flaw in your argument. I repeat, (in response to)-

KarinsDad said:
Unless you can explain how the following sentence gives any information about Monday, your argument is useless.

"You shouldn't argue about logic. A statement's validity (or even its usefulness) is not predicated by someone's (anyone's) ability to explain it, least of all to explain it to anyone in particular, such as yourself."


Why not try and say something even more personal about me and see if that makes you right? I can take it. Honest. It won't really change anything but if it makes you feel better to do so, I guess I don't mind letting you take it out on me.
 

IcyCool said:
I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your stance, just as you are attacking the stance of KarinsDad. It's called an arguement. There is nothing inherently personal there.

Several points have been made regarding your stance, and you have not acknowledged them. You seem to see any disagreement as a personal attack. You have decided that you are right, and that's that. I think that's it's getting a little too irritable in this thread. I'll be back tomorrow to see if things have calmed down.

Until then, have fun with your houserule. ;)

When it comes across as an attack that is one thing, disagree and prove your point that is fine. Disagree and throw a statement that calls into question a persons education, intelligence, or seems to be patronizing is another especially without proof for your point.

I've already stated several times each to their own opinion until something is provided that is clear from WOTC as RAW is obviously is open to interpretation. Call it a house rule if you like, but consider for second how such a statement may be considered by the one receiving it; it could be interpreted to mean that since I don’t agree with your stance I just go against the rules whenever I feel like it. On the reverse, your interpretation would be a house rule to me and one that does more to harm than good.

As far as being irritated. Yeah, I’d agree that is possible, as some things have rubbed me the wrong way. But I try to continue the debate in good faith, and try to stick to the points. However, I will defend against what I perceive as attacks against me and not my stance.

RD
 

The argument has come full circle. KarinsDad is repeating things that I have presented already, and RuminDange is doing his thing as he did when I presented them.

It is obvious no one is going to accept one opinion or the other until someone at WOTC says what is meant by the text. So how does one go about getting this information? What is the email address of the WOTC people? Has anyone done this yet?

D
 

custserv@wizards.com

That's the email for Wizards customer service. They may or may not be able to offer an answer. It would be better to hear from a designer ...

Anyway, no one is going to be swayed by this point, just further entrenched with each revolution of the circle.

While everyone is focusing on the "unless blah blah blah" statement, I'd still like to see more discussion on this sentence:

"Healing that raises your hit points above 0 makes you fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points."

That's much more pertinent to the issue, I think.

And I don't think whether or not anyone is happy on Monday is adding anything to the discussion. It's just confusing things more.
 

IcyCool said:
The point is, KarinsDad is arguing what is written, and you arguing what is implied.
No, I'm not arguing what is implied. I'm arguing the interpretation of what is written. Just like KarinsDad is.
If we want to go with the Rule As Written: If I'm at exactly 0 hit points, and use my Standard Action to Fireball myself for 50, then I am at -1. (And dying!)

Unless it is Monday, I am happy.
Except on the condition that it is Monday, I am happy.
Now I'm very good at basic programming logic. The problem that is coming up here AGAIN is the defenition/interpretation of unless.
If we want to use some unrelated (and in my opinion irrelevant) happy Monday problem to somehow determine whether you take 1 damage or not, lets use the standard logic operators. (If Then Else Or Elsif etc...)
IF it is not Monday THEN I am happy.
Yes, I know this says nothing about my mood on Monday. I am going to assume this is the translation you would choose.
IF I am happy THEN it is not Monday.
This translation does tell me about my mood on Monday. This is of course how I read the sentence. In any case, it's a useless example as it in no way has anything to do with casting Cure Minor Wounds on yourself while disabled. It doesn't prove or disprove anything, since your defintion of UNLESS seems to differ from mine. (And the dictionary.)

Now stop throwing out irrelevant metaphors, similies, examples and stick to the facts. (And tell me why I'm not at -1 after Fireballing myself for 50. Do not imply anything. Use just the RAW.)

Later!
Gruns
 

This subject is starting to become a hopeless cause, but I will make one more attempt here. Hopefully RD or someone will be able to answer the last few questions at the end of this post.

I will use the Disabled definition from page 300 of the 3.5 DMG. This definition is a little more complete than some of the other SRD and PHB ones.

"Disabled: A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn't risk further injuries, but performing any standard action (or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character's hit points, she is in negative hit points and dying."

Let's look at some examples with both interpretations:

Interpretation #1: "but performing ANY standard action deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act" every single time

PC at -5, casts Cure Light Wounds for 3, goes to -2, then goes to -3
PC at -5, casts Cure Light Wounds for 8, goes to 3, then goes to 2
PC at 0, casts Aid for 1 temporary hit point, goes to 1, then goes to 0
PC at 0, casts Aid for 3 temporary hit points, goes to 3, then goes to 2

Interpretation #2: "but performing ANY standard action deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act" unless the action increases hit points

PC at -5, casts Cure Light Wounds for 3, goes to -2
PC at -5, casts Cure Light Wounds for 8, goes to 3
PC at 0, casts Aid for 1 temporary hit point, goes to 1
PC at 0, casts Aid for 3 temporary hit points, goes to 3

Using BOTH interpretations, the character can still be in negative hit points after the fact.

Using BOTH interpretations, the character is not dying if she is in negative hit points after the fact

Hmmm. So, healing (or gaining hit points) does not require in either interpretation that the character is dying, healing only makes sure that the character is NOT dying.

What is different about the two interpretations?

One interpretation disregards an earlier sentence. The other does not.

The interpretation that disregards the earlier sentence does not do it because the "Unless" sentence explicitly states to disregard the earlier sentence, but rather because of some unusual interpretation of what the "Unless" sentence really states.

But, less us carefully look at the example:

Interpretation #1:
PC at -5, casts Cure Light Wounds for 8, goes to 3, then goes to 2
Interpretation #2:
PC at -5, casts Cure Light Wounds for 8, goes to 3

How does interpretation #2 work at all here?

"Taking move actions doesn't risk further injuries, but performing any standard action deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character's hit points, she is in negative hit points and dying."

How does the "Unless" sentence stop the "deals 1 point of damage" sentence from doing a point of damage in this case? The action DID increase the disabled character's hit points, so she is not in negative hit points and dying.

Can RD (or someone who agrees with him) answer this question and focus SOLELY on this case to do so?

For the "Unless" interpretation to be true, it has to be true for all cases, not just the Cure Minor Wounds at zero hit points case (which btw, it does not appear to be true for either).
 

IcyCool said:
Except, of course, that the section in question says nothing about that. ;)

'Round and 'round we go. One side provides proof, the other says "Nuh-uh!"

*sigh* Talk to you guys tomorrow.
I can no longer tell which side is which. The only thing obvious to me is the rule is not written as clearly as either side is claiming, else both would not be quoting the same passage as proof for their own stance.
I am afraid after this debate, even if WotC chimes in with an official statement, most of the participants will continue to rule as they have argued.
(For what it's worth, I see both sides as having valid interpretations on this issue. I have chosen which I will use for now, but that only affects my game.)
 

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