log in or register to remove this ad

 

5E Cure Wounds needs help or Healing Word needs a nerf...

werecorpse

Explorer
Cure wounds could be Level x (1d8+stat) which would boost it when used at higher levels?

I play that when cure wounds is cast at 3rd level or higher it has a range of 30’ and does double stat bonus so it’s a more substantial boost. I also play that hit point go to -10 and, like Hellditch, intelligent enemies murder unconscious PCs if they keep getting up so healing word is less useful to restore consciousness.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Var

Explorer
Didn't see it mentioned yet (but maybe I'm blind?). Using your Action for more healing usually works better if you can keep your Bonus Action busy, i.e. if you're in the thick of it as one of the Plate Clerics and have Spiritual Weapon running. That and Grave Clerics healing downed targets will appreciate the noticeable bigger bang for their buck.

Healing Word generally has better Action economy for most casters, since Bonus Actions aren't regularly occupied with things like PAM or Cunning Action on Casters. It's also by far the better utility Spell to make sure you can bring someone back from rolling Death Saves. Since healing can be a bit lackluster before that.
The choice is generally going to be - do I want to prepare just Healing Word or do I want both?
 
Last edited:

I don't know for you, but in my games, clerics usually use their bonus action for spiritual weapon. This open the main action for either a catrip attack or a CW or any other spell. They are usually close to melee characters so healing the with a CW is not a problem.
 
Last edited:

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
I don't know for you, but in my games, clerics usually use their bonus action for spiritual weapon. This open the main action for either a catrip attack ou a CW ou any other spell. They are usually close to melee characters so healing the with a CW is not a problem.
Before anyone says you can't use SW and CW on the same turn, you can if you casted SW on the previous turn.


On a related note, A character actually died because the druid tried to undo wildshape and healing word the monk, but undoing a wildshape costs a bonus action. The druid didn't prepare CW and the monk died where he would've lived.
 

On a related note, A character actually died because the druid tried to undo wildshape and healing word the monk, but undoing a wildshape costs a bonus action. The druid didn't prepare CW and the monk died where he would've lived.
I know a firefighter who responded to an accident in which a motorcyclist slid across the street, bounced off the curb, hooked the edge of his helmet on the curb, and died from a broken neck.

He cited this as evidence that it’s safer to ride without a helmet.
 

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
I know a firefighter who responded to an accident in which a motorcyclist slid across the street, bounced off the curb, hooked the edge of his helmet on the curb, and died from a broken neck.

He cited this as evidence that it’s safer to ride without a helmet.
Lol, c'mon you. I'm just saying that if you plan to be a druid that wildshapes often and would like to heal without delaying your turn, CW would probably be more effective.
 


Al'Kelhar

Explorer
In the absence of dedication by one character to being a healbot, damage in combat will always exceed healing in combat.

The purpose of 1st level healing spells is to bring an unconscious ally back into the fight. Whether that ally has 1d4 + spell modifier hit points or 1d8 + spell modifier hit points is largely irrelevant past a certain level; they will go unconscious on the next hit anyway. You're casting a spell to get another set of actions in a round for the good guy team, in the hope those actions will help you win the fight. And you're casting it at 1st level, if you can. So the good guy team can choose to spend either an action and probably a move (Cure Wounds) or a bonus action (Healing Word) in order to get an action and hopefully a bonus action.

Healing Word is the obvious tactical choice, and Cure Wounds is the red-headed stepchild.

Out of combat, Prayer of Healing is the sensible choice for party healing (unless you've got access to Aura of Vitality).

No cleric I've seen has prepared both Cure Wounds and Healing Word past 3rd level.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 


Come to my games then. Both spells are used up to the point where Heal is available. My players will avoid the whack a mole syndrome at all cost since their enemies will react to this tactic by slaying the falling character should he fall again. So the higher the spell level the better and the most hp gained the better. The player wants to be as far as falling again as possible. Very often, players will a character as soon as he is within falling damage potential by a critical. This prevent the whack a mole too. The bonus action is often used for the Siritual weapon but not always.
 

Al'Kelhar

Explorer
Come to my games then. Both spells are used up to the point where Heal is available. My players will avoid the whack a mole syndrome at all cost since their enemies will react to this tactic by slaying the falling character should he fall again. So the higher the spell level the better and the most hp gained the better. The player wants to be as far as falling again as possible. Very often, players will a character as soon as he is within falling damage potential by a critical. This prevent the whack a mole too. The bonus action is often used for the Siritual weapon but not always.
Sure, depends on the situation and all that. But maybe you play set-piece battle that allow spellcasters like clerics to blow all their high level slots on Cure Wounds, cause they've got the slots to splurge. But I'm not seeing much difference between a PC on 5hp from a 1st level Healing Word and a PC on 16hp from a 3rd level Cure Wounds - if the cleric is going to burn an action and a 3rd level spell slot, I'm seriously asking whether the cleric has something better to do with their action and a 3rd level spell slot that hope like hell the rogue they've just healed will remain conscious for two rounds at least.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 

The healing is usually done to give the character in trouble enough time to quaff a potion of healing or to execute a tactical retreat. A cleric of sufficient high level will often have a spiritual weapon up as an additional source of damage. He is also likely to be in the thick of combat with SG as an aoe. Chances are that he will be usually close enough to warrant the use of an upgraded CW instead of a HW.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Before anyone says you can't use SW and CW on the same turn, you can if you casted SW on the previous turn.


On a related note, A character actually died because the druid tried to undo wildshape and healing word the monk, but undoing a wildshape costs a bonus action. The druid didn't prepare CW and the monk died where he would've lived.
Couldn't the druid use his Action to either unshape or HW? Was there a reason he needed to use his action elsewhere as well?
 

rgoodbb

Explorer
I also have found HW far outmatches CW in combat as a get up and go spell. The amount of HP doesn't often matter. Because of this, make HW a 1st level spell only. No upcasting. Then if you have access to both, you will probably take both but for different reasons.
 

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
Couldn't the druid use his Action to either unshape or HW? Was there a reason he needed to use his action elsewhere as well?
You can't exchange Bonus Actions and Actions. If something costs a Bonus Action, you must use your one Bonus Action and you can't use a Bonus Action effect as an action.

Uh, so basically, no he couldn't.
 

You can't exchange Bonus Actions and Actions. If something costs a Bonus Action, you must use your one Bonus Action and you can't use a Bonus Action effect as an action.

Uh, so basically, no he couldn't.
You might be technically correct (depending on how one interprets the "action" in "bonus action"), but this seems like a strange rules artifact, and I've yet to encounter a DM who doesn't let people use bonus actions as their regular action.

Well, I guess I have now, but you take my point.
 

Then if you have access to both, you will probably take both but for different reasons.
I rarely see people spend two precious spell slots on both. Those who can learn Healing Word...and understand the difference...usually do, and those who cannot take Cure Wounds.
 

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
You might be technically correct (depending on how one interprets the "action" in "bonus action"), but this seems like a strange rules artifact, and I've yet to encounter a DM who doesn't let people use bonus actions as their regular action.

Well, I guess I have now, but you take my point.
I'm very strict when it comes to these things because I know that even though they're rare, they'll eventually come up. For a less extreme example, a bard can't use his Bardic Inspiration and healing word at the same time and a cleric can't use his SW and healing word.

Huh, didn't realize those were the only 3 classes that even got that choice. Interesting. Anyways, it sometimes come up and I ask players to not sleep on anything in the game because it may come up at some point.
 

Saelorn

Hero
You have to be very careful how effective something like Cure Wounds can be. If it's so effective that a war cleric can make it work every round, that's going to be the expectation of the group. If cure wounds outdid an enemy's damage, when someone goes down, they'll blame the cleric/bard.
Of course, it's so inefficient in terms of action economy that casting it is a waste of time, then you make an entire core archetype non-viable. If you want to heal someone, but the enemy undoes that (and more) on the next turn, then the party will still blame you.

The weird thing is, this problem was solved decades ago. It's perfectly fine for a healing spell to outpace enemy damage, as long as healing slots themselves are a limited resource. A cleric casting healing spells on consecutive turns is the equivalent of going nova; it should be a viable strategy on occasion.
 

I think healing in 5e is overvalued. It's really bad but it's always treated as this big deal and 'OP' if it's too good and I don't get it. It doesn't make you win any faster.
It's kind of wildly inconsistently valued, and in-combat healing is valued excessively at lower levels (where out of combat is valued lower there, but higher later). It's a bit all over the place.

The OP's suggestion re: making touch heals allow you to spend HD is extremely sensible, frankly. Because HD are a fixed resource, it's not particularly unbalanced. Limiting the number of HD by the level of the spell also prevents it become too powerful.

I'm very strict when it comes to these things because I know that even though they're rare, they'll eventually come up. For a less extreme example, a bard can't use his Bardic Inspiration and healing word at the same time and a cleric can't use his SW and healing word.
They do eventually come up, but that's not really the point. The issue he was pointing out is that, though they come up, it's not really interesting or meaningfully balance-improving to follow the RAW obsessively here. Generally speaking, it's unlikely to be a problem to allow someone to use a Bonus Action spell as an Action. Your examples show that. It's certainly not damaging to the game, nor unbalanced, to allow a Bard to use HW as an Action, and and also Inspiration as a Bonus Action. If you block that, what's the change? The Bard uses HW still, but as a Bonus Action, and makes an attack or casts a different spell as their action, and uses Inspiration next time. Did that improve your game? Did that improve the experience of everyone at the table? I very much doubt it did either.

That doesn't mean it's in any way inappropriate or wrong to run it that way. It's totally fine. But equally, the point being made to you is that it's not a real problem to run it the other way, because 5E just isn't that tightly balanced.

There may be exceptions, particularly as you get into 3PP stuff, where allowing this does create a balance issue, particularly if the Bonus Action doesn't draw on a limited resource (but in your examples, they did), but it's certainly likely to be a corner-case of what is already a corner-case. I know from many spell-threads that you do love your corner-cases though! :)
 
Last edited:

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top