D&D 5E Curse of Strahd: alternative exits?

[DEFCON 1]

Or you can just forget the mists? This is just a regular place ruled over by a vampire. The people generally don't leave because most people don't seek opportunity elsewhere (that's a pretty modern thing). The PCs can leave any time they want, but with the knowledge that they've left the poor locals to their fate if they don't deal with Strahd.

That could certainly be a possibility, but that wouldn't change the fact that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] would still need personal PC quests to inspire them to stay within Barovia. Since he wants to actually run CoS but doesn't want to aim the end game only towards killing Strahd... he's really wanting ideas that connect personal PC quests to other ways to leave so that they have a double reason to undertake those quests (both because they are personal and important to the PC, and also because that's their way of leaving.)

 

[CapnZapp]

Another thing to consider is that the reason why so many games just naturally go to "Kill Strahd!" as their finale is because Madam Eva's reading gives info on things specifically towards that end. She tells the PCs about three artifacts that inform the group about who Strahd is and are made to kill him, an ally that will help them kill him, and a location where he is always found so that they can kill him. If you want to not make Strahd's death an inevitable conclusion, then I'd suggest either not sending them to Madam Eva directly upon arriving... or else change what Madam Eva tells them when they go there early in the campaign to things that are about their potential personal quests and not the normal stuff about the artifacts and ally.

Save Madam Eva's normal card reading to be a resource later on to go to *if/when* the PCs have made the decision on their own that they want to kill Strahd and free the land, at which point the Keepers of the Feather or somebody says "You should probably go speak with Madam Eva (again, or for the first time), as she might have knowledge to help you on that score."

Good point, thanks.

Perhaps first reading gives them their "Destinies", and if they later decide to open a can of whoop-ass, they can return for a second reading, where they themselves are asking for these vampire hunter clues.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Part of the issue that I suspect you might run into is that as it stands now within the book, the only reason why PCs even enter Ravenloft in the first place is because Strahd pulls them into his realm in order for them to entertain him by bumbling about. As a result, the natural inclination is to assume that if Strahd is the one who pulled them in, and he's the one directly responsible for the mists that are keeping them from leaving, then getting rid of Strahd is really the only logical recourse.

What you might want to think about is changing the story a bit, such that Strahd is not actually responsible for the PC's predicament. They get pulled into the mists and into the Baratok Valley because the land draws them in, and once here they find still everything as-is (including an overbearing and angry lord who they might eventually discover is a vampire)... but the difference though is that Strahd isn't causing everything the PCs are suffering from... he's just as much a victim here as everyone else. If you don't treat him as THE antagonist of the adventure, but rather just one of many potential antagonists... it would go a long way in stopping the players from thinking that Strahd is the only real key to escape. And then, each PC's personal quest for escape takes more of a focus.

 

[SwivSnapshot]

If you don't treat him as THE antagonist of the adventure, but rather just one of many potential antagonists... it would go a long way in stopping the players from thinking that Strahd is the only real key to escape.

This should be added as an Errata to COS.

My PC's treated Strahd as an unwelcome ally while they plotted to get vengeance on the Witch of Berez and Rahadin, while looking for clues on how to survive the Amber Temple.

 

[CapnZapp]

Or you can just forget the mists? This is just a regular place ruled over by a vampire. The people generally don't leave because most people don't seek opportunity elsewhere (that's a pretty modern thing). The PCs can leave any time they want, but with the knowledge that they've left the poor locals to their fate if they don't deal with Strahd.

That could certainly be a possibility, but that wouldn't change the fact that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] would still need personal PC quests to inspire them to stay within Barovia. Since he wants to actually run CoS but doesn't want to aim the end game only towards killing Strahd... he's really wanting ideas that connect personal PC quests to other ways to leave so that they have a double reason to undertake those quests (both because they are personal and important to the PC, and also because that's their way of leaving.)

Making it completely voluntary to stick around does accomplish my basic aim, but causes other problems: why aren't neighboring kingdoms intervening? Or what if the characters tip off the closest order of Paladins? It just distracts from the thematic focus of the scenario. Thank you for the suggestion, but hopefully you see why I don't think I'll be using it.

Part of the gothic horror aspect is the inescapability of the mists. If Barovia is cut off, it's up to the characters to deal with it and possibly die for it, or not deal with it and live with that decision. But whatever they choose, they are the focus. It's their personal decision that matters.

 

[CapnZapp]

In my mind, focusing on "Escape the Mists" (by fulfilling your personal Destinies) makes for a better scenario, since no longer are you The Chosen Ones everybody expects to be the Grand Hero, while still "forced" to experience a lot of Barovia just for your own salvation's sake.

You can still be the hero (and let me be clear: hopefully they will still choose to be those heroes) but at least the adventure isn't writing it on the nose.

 

[CapnZapp]

Part of the issue that I suspect you might run into is that as it stands now within the book, the only reason why PCs even enter Ravenloft in the first place is because Strahd pulls them into his realm in order for them to entertain him by bumbling about. As a result, the natural inclination is to assume that if Strahd is the one who pulled them in, and he's the one directly responsible for the mists that are keeping them from leaving, then getting rid of Strahd is really the only logical recourse.

What you might want to think about is changing the story a bit, such that Strahd is not actually responsible for the PC's predicament. They get pulled into the mists and into the Baratok Valley because the land draws them in, and once here they find still everything as-is (including an overbearing and angry lord who they might eventually discover is a vampire)... but the difference though is that Strahd isn't causing everything the PCs are suffering from... he's just as much a victim here as everyone else. If you don't treat him as THE antagonist of the adventure, but rather just one of many potential antagonists... it would go a long way in stopping the players from thinking that Strahd is the only real key to escape. And them, each PC's personal quest for escape takes more of a focus.

Definitely.

Stating conclusively Strahd is responsible for pulling them in is a classic case of over-explaining.

The why and how they got sucked into the mists is something that never needs to be explained. In fact, explaining it only lessens the tale.

 

[CapnZapp]

he's really wanting ideas that connect personal PC quests to other ways to leave so that they have a double reason to undertake those quests (both because they are personal and important to the PC, and also because that's their way of leaving.)

Let me just clarify.

When you speak about Quests, you mean the book's starting errands, right?

That's not what I'm envisioning here. I realize I used that term but I've switched to using Destinies for what I mean.

Giving the characters a starting reason for travelling on the road that leads to the mists is perfectly okay, and I'll probably keep those.

When I talk about Destiny I mean something that comes to the character in a dream, or as part of Madam Eva's card reading. The important point is that this only happens once it is inevitable they will be drawn into the mists; not before. Whether this comes from any remaining powers of good or just, or merely is a fact of life for every outsider captured, is of lesser concern.

A quest is then "deliver this to X" or Arrigal's plea for help (though I shall probably not use something that heavily implies the party is specifically tricked, see above post)

A destiny is, maybe, "open the heart of Sir Y for true love" (either directed towards the character, or some other object of affectation the party has managed to suss out is appropriate), or, I dunno, "make Lady Z weep a tear of regret and you shall take a step towards freedom" (Lady Z being some petrified or vampiric noblewoman that can be made to face her sins); with Mme Eva explaining that the mists will only lift if and when all surviving party members have all fulfilled their personal destiny, basically ensuring the party sticks together.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Definitely.

Stating conclusively Strahd is responsible for pulling them in is a classic case of over-explaining.

The why and how they got sucked into the mists is something that never needs to be explained. In fact, explaining it only lessens the tale.

Absolutely true... and it results in a slight disconnect between the "campaign setting" of the Baratok Valley and the actual I6 module within the book. Because they kept most of I6 as-is within CoS, the main story stays as "find out Strahd is a vampire and that he is responsible for the PC's predicament and if you want to leave you have to kill him". And all the explanations from I6 of why the PCs are there remain the same as the original module. But that also means that everything else in the valley isn't actually important to that story and really is kind of extraneous. It's only all there really just to allow a DM to bring PCs into Barovia at a much lower level than they otherwise would be and to give them other "non-main-story" things to do until they reach the level to jump back onto the "Strahd is responsible, go kill him!" plot.

Had this been an "autumn release" book wherein a much more original storyline was created only just with elements to familiar products of the past... that main Strahd story thrust probably wouldn't be there so heavily and a more organic reason for being here and multiple methods for escape would be given . But instead, because it was a spring release it very much has a feel of "easier and less time-consuming product to produce" that we've now gotten from both CoS and TofYP. Which I suspect is why I6 was mainly incorporated as-is, and all the other stuff in the valley was added just as "filler" for lack of a better term (although that has much more a of a negative connotation as I really should give it, as I find all this extra stuff absolutely wonderful and a great addition to the book.)

But it just means that each individual DM has to do more work to truly make CoS their own, in whatever manner or style they wish to run it. But of course, based upon the long Enhancing Curse of Strahd thread, it seems like a lot of us not only don't mind doing that, but we find it much more enjoyable that we do put our own stamps on the book that way.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Let me just clarify.

When you speak about Quests, you mean the book's starting errands, right?

That's not what I'm envisioning here. I realize I used that term but I've switched to using Destinies for what I mean.

Nope, your idea of "destinies" is indeed what I was getting from what you were saying and what I was trying to convey to the others too. You did a very good job making that clear (as least to me) and it makes perfect sense as to why you are looking for those ideas. I just might have muddied the waters after the fact. LOL.