D&D 5E Curse of Strahd question for DMs (spoiler warning)

tommybahama

Adventurer
I'm playing a Circle of Shepherd druid. We are in the Castle Ravenloft and have searched Rahadin's office where we found a file on each member of the party. Mine mentioned that I was a summoner and that forbiddance has been cast all over the castle. Is that part of the module? When we fought Baba Lysaga my summons took 5d10 damage when I cast Conjure Woodland Beings. It didn't seem fair but I didn't argue. Is this considered a "fair" nerf? Our DM keeps complaining about summoning but I got his permission before the campaign started, he refuses to use minion rules or average hp/damage, and none of the five other players have said there was a problem even when asked repeatedly. I won't argue with him but it will probably help me to decide whether to continue in his next campaign.

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Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
So one thing to consider is that Strahd and Rahadin are smart. It's likely that Strahd has been spying on your group and may know more about you than you know about him. So even if that's not part of the original module, it is in line with the spirit of these characters. But if he's a decent DM he would allow your group the ability to dispel the magic. Maybe it's tied to a focus object that if destroyed would destroy the forbiddance effect. Maybe it's tied to a person or creature that you can find and deal with. Or maybe you can seek an object that would prevent the magic of the spell from working on you and your summons.

But this seems like a deeper problem. You clearly aren't having fun, and if you aren't able to use your class abilities to their fullest it's not hard to see why. I would recommend a talk with the DM. Be honest about your feelings and observations. But also be understanding. He may not be used to a summoner class and have difficulty adjusting. He might not be aware that his way of addressing the problem he sees is impacting your enjoyment of the game. Letting him know may encourage him to try to do better about giving you opportunities to use your class abilities and have fun. Alternatively, if he feels strongly about summoning and isn't ready to manage such a challenge, it might be better to request to retire the character and make something else. This would allow you to play a character you can actually enjoy, and save your DM from a headache he isn't ready or prepared to tackle.

Also, out of curiosity, when you summon a creature, who controls it and keeps track of it? Who decides what is summoned? If it is different each time, then that can create a lot of issues. One, it slows down the game trying to look through the monster manual and deciding what is going to be summoned. Two, if the DM has to control it then it really can add a lot to what the DM has to track in battle, which is probably already a good amount to keep track of without having to also manage your summoned creatures. If you aren't already doing it, I would recommend having specific individuals that you would summon consistently and give each one a character sheet. Then when you cast a summoning spell, you only select from the sheets that you have. You can even name them and give them back stories as to how they have been bound into your service! Also, ask the DM if you can control them and keep track of their HP and such. This can remove a lot of the issues you guys are encountering that may be impacting the fun of the DM and the other players.

Hope this helps!
 

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
This specific counter to party abilities isn't in the adventure, but a couple of points:

1. The book does explicitly tell the DM to play Strahd as smart, and that logically extends to Rahadin as well.
2. Rahadin's files aren't mentioned in the module, so the fact that you have an opportunity to find out about this at all is thanks to the DM. Which suggests to me that he is trying to play fair with you on at least some level.

I think the advice in the previous message about talking to your DM is solid.
 

toucanbuzz

No rule is inviolate
Our DM keeps complaining about summoning...
First, it doesn't matter how the adventure is written. Monsters have whatever the DM wants them to have, especially when you're dealing with a centuries-old battle tactician and virtual demigod in his own cursed realm. Strahd has been around long enough to have forbiddance cast over the entire castle if he wanted and had access to a cleric, though, spoiler alert, it's not a default tactic for him.

Second, in my experience, there's an unspoken understanding DMs won't go out of their way to intentionally screw over a player's tactics. On the flipside of that equation, players don't take advantage of flukes in the system, use cheesy combos that suck the fun out of the game, and so on.

I defer heavily to @Hawk Diesel and everything in that post, as well as adding that your DM may perceive summoning as cheese or sucking the fun out of the game (for him) in some way, while for you it was supposed to be okay. Have a sit-down rather than bail. If afterwards you don't feel like you're on the same page, at least you'll know.
 


tommybahama

Adventurer
Also, out of curiosity, when you summon a creature, who controls it and keeps track of it? Who decides what is summoned? If it is different each time, then that can create a lot of issues. One, it slows down the game trying to look through the monster manual and deciding what is going to be summoned. Two, if the DM has to control it then it really can add a lot to what the DM has to track in battle, which is probably already a good amount to keep track of without having to also manage your summoned creatures. If you aren't already doing it, I would recommend having specific individuals that you would summon consistently and give each one a character sheet. Then when you cast a summoning spell, you only select from the sheets that you have. You can even name them and give them back stories as to how they have been bound into your service! Also, ask the DM if you can control them and keep track of their HP and such. This can remove a lot of the issues you guys are encountering that may be impacting the fun of the DM and the other players.

Hope this helps!

I asked before starting the campaign and we agreed I could choose the summons excluding pixies and I would control the summoned creatures. We play on Roll20 which takes care of a lot of the work already and I've really limited the use of my creatures to a half dozen or so above CR 1/2 (so four creatures at max). I'm fully capable of handling the summons and even made macros to roll the to-hit and damage. But for large battles he insists on doing it himself. I don't know why except that he can be obstinate about some things.

I defer heavily to @Hawk Diesel and everything in that post, as well as adding that your DM may perceive summoning as cheese or sucking the fun out of the game (for him) in some way, while for you it was supposed to be okay.

I don't think I've been cheesing it with the summons. In fact, our DM likes to target spell casters so my summons are usually busy defending me rather than doing anything cool. Outside of summoning I've become the party heal bot since we have several players that aren't good at managing their HP. According to Rahadin's files I'm the one that Strahd wants dead first. So I guess that's a bit of a compliment.

Thanks everyone for the advice.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I'm playing a Circle of Shepherd druid. We are in the Castle Ravenloft and have searched Rahadin's office where we found a file on each member of the party. Mine mentioned that I was a summoner and that forbiddance has been cast all over the castle. Is that part of the module? When we fought Baba Lysaga my summons took 5d10 damage when I cast Conjure Woodland Beings. It didn't seem fair but I didn't argue. Is this considered a "fair" nerf? Our DM keeps complaining about summoning but I got his permission before the campaign started, he refuses to use minion rules or average hp/damage, and none of the five other players have said there was a problem even when asked repeatedly. I won't argue with him but it will probably help me to decide whether to continue in his next campaign.

View attachment 137270
As others have said, all bets are off when your in ravenloft & that goes for both adventurers & the dark lords. Unfortunately 5e CoS is more gotinc FR than ravenloft & the VGTR book only very slightly improves on that. Here is a section gfrom vgtr on magic & metaphysics

Magic and Metaphysics​

The Dark Powers manipulate the domains and creatures within their grasp in the most fundamental ways, controlling magic, the nature of life and death, and the means of escaping from their nightmare realms.

Mysterious Magic​

In some domains, magic is an everyday part of life, while in others, insular communities fear it as the province of monsters. Few domains deny magic entirely or outlaw its use, but magic might be rare beyond the spellcasting of local healers or the power of the occasional family heirloom. It’s up to you to decide how pervasive magic is in a domain, choosing whether a dearth or an excess of magic is more terrifying.

Rarity of Magic. In domains where inhabitants regard simple magic as remarkable, those inhabitants’ lack of engagement with the supernatural doesn’t mean you should limit magic for adventurers. Rather, use this as an opportunity to feature magic-using characters as figures of awe or terror, or to assign storied origins to common magic items.

Corrupted Magic. The Dark Powers influence magical effects, imparting them with sinister qualities. How these changes manifest are for you to decide and can shift from domain to domain. Do summoned creatures appear undead in one domain or violently mutated in another? Do divination spells rasp in the voices of otherworldly ancients? Do the effects of drinking a potion of healing feel like grubs weaving wounds shut from within? Magic looks menacing in the Domains of Dread, but descriptive embellishments shouldn’t change the actual effects of spells or magic items.

Prison of Souls​

Everyone among the Domains of Dread is a prisoner. The Darklords number among the most prominent captives, but every creature claimed by the Mists dwells outside the natural order of the multiverse. Even death doesn’t afford an escape from the Dark Powers, which hoard every soul that falls into their clutches. In the Land of the Mists, death isn’t an escape, but the beginning of a new terror.

Soulless Shells. Not every being among the Domains of Dread has a soul. Many inhabitants of each domain are creations of the Dark Powers, whose bodies have been formed from the land and the Mists. For all intents and purposes, and even under magical detection, these beings are what they appear to be. The Dark Powers fashion them as living puppets—individuals who live unremarkable lives that reinforce the status quo, culture, and frustration that torment a domain’s Darklord.

Bright Souls. Individuals born in the Land of the Mists who have souls tend to be vibrant, imaginative, and ambitious. But they find these virtues stifled by the dour, soulless individuals who outnumber them, leading many to seek better lives and answers to the mysteries of their home domain. Every player’s character who was born in a domain is one of these vibrant souls.

Death in Ravenloft. When a creature with a soul dies among the Domains of Dread, its spirit becomes caught in the Mists and can’t travel to the afterlife. If a creature who has been dead for at least 24 hours returns to life by way of a spell or other supernatural means, it realizes that its spirit is trapped within the Mists, likely forever. Using the rules for “Fear and Stress” from chapter 4, the creature gains a new Seed of Fear.

If a being with a soul dies and is not returned to life, that soul remains trapped within the Domains of Dread until it is reincarnated, a process that can take decades. Individuals who inherit the same soul over generations often look alike and might recall memories of their past lives.

Metaphysical Mysteries. The state of souls in the Domains of Dread provides a dose of existential terror to those hoping to manipulate life and death to escape these realms. Beyond that, who does and doesn’t have a soul among the domains rarely matters unless an adventure explores themes of life, death, and reincarnation. Players might create ties with long-dead individuals using the Dark Gifts and backgrounds presented in chapter 1. But overall, spiritual stagnation in the Land of the Mists is meant to provide the opportunity for grim revelations, not existential bookkeeping.

Planar Connections​

Each domain is its own demiplane, isolated from all other planes including the Material Plane. No spell—not even wish—allows escape from the Domains of Dread. Spells such astral projection, plane shift, teleport, and similar magic cast for the purpose of escaping a domain simply fail, as do effects that banish a creature to another plane. These restrictions apply to all other effects, including magic items and artifacts that transport or banish creatures to other planes. Magic that allows transit to the Border Ethereal, such as the etherealness spell and the Etherealness feature of ghosts, is the exception to this rule. A creature that enters the Border Ethereal from a domain is pulled back into the domain it left upon leaving the Ethereal.

For the purpose of spells whose effects change across or are blocked by planar boundaries (such as sending), each domain is considered its own plane. Magic that summons creatures or objects from other planes functions normally, as does magic that involves an extradimensional space. Spells cast within an extradimensional space (such as that created by Mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion are subject to the same restrictions as magic cast within a domain.

While in the Domains of Dread, characters who receive spells from deities or otherworldly patrons continue to do so. In addition, spells that allow contact with beings from other planes function normally, with one proviso: the domain’s Darklord senses when someone in their domain casts such a spell and can choose to make themself the spell’s target, so that they become the one who is contacted.
Later in the book it also says "Feature monsters that are immune to tactics characters often use but that are vulnerable to other strategies the characters could employ." in horror gameplay horror threats. If your druid is the go to mvp solution for the group you can probably expect some targeting. "(nearly)all of castle ravenloft is under the forbiddance spell" however is well beyond targeting & goes straight into "yeaaahhh bob might as well skip that week".

VGTR may not really say much about the dark powers, but here's a pretty good description of them from exploring eberron that largely applies to their role in ravenloft as well
The mightiest and most malevolent beings in Mabar are
known as the Dark Powers. Each embodies a particular
aspect of Mabar and rules a domain of linked layers. Some
have been part of Mabar since the beginning of time, while
others have risen from the fragments consumed by the
Endless Night. Most of the Dark Powers are equivalent in
power to archfey or archfiends, though they’re even stronger
in the layer they’re bound to, their seat of power. However,
they have a limited ability to act beyond Mabar, and can
only affect the Material Plane through warlocks or undead
servants. Three of the Dark Powers that are known on
Eberron are described later in this section, but there are
many more in the shadows.
The dark powers are not clearly good or evil & are just as happy rmpowering a dark lord as they are screwing them over. I'd talk to your GM about finding more interesting solutions than suggesting you skip a given session
 

toucanbuzz

No rule is inviolate
...for large battles he insists on doing it himself.
Ugh, why would the DM do that, even on Rolld20! No wonder he wants the summons dead instantly.
I don't think I've been cheesing it with the summons...
Didn't mean to insinuate you were! Noting that the DM may have some personal beef with summons. Personally, I don't mind summons in our tabletop games so long as the player helps speed up play, such as monster stat cards to hand out to other players so they can help with the labor. Rolld20, even better for management.

Forbiddance isn't easy or cheap, and given the vast size of that castle, it's going to take several to cover all the places PCs could go. I suppose if Strahd went through all this extra effort to find a high level cleric to shield his place against little ole PC summoner, consider it a compliment? Also, unless he just happened, coincidentally, to have a permanent one in place against fey, there's some high level cleric running around Barovia helping out, and that person needs what may be a steady supply of rare and unusual components (powdered ruby and rare incense, much less "holy water!") Perhaps you can cut off his helper? It's the kind of nefarious cunning scheme my players would probably come up....they're always plotting...
 


Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
I asked before starting the campaign and we agreed I could choose the summons excluding pixies and I would control the summoned creatures. We play on Roll20 which takes care of a lot of the work already and I've really limited the use of my creatures to a half dozen or so above CR 1/2 (so four creatures at max). I'm fully capable of handling the summons and even made macros to roll the to-hit and damage. But for large battles he insists on doing it himself. I don't know why except that he can be obstinate about some things.

Then definitely talk to your DM. It doesn't make sense to be inconsistent in him controlling the summoned creatures sometimes and you controlling them sometimes. It should be one or the other, and as a Forever DM myself, anything that I can place upon the players to track and manage, the more brain power I have to focus on the management of the game. It sounds like your DM may have a need to control things and might have difficulty letting go of that control. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just means he has a certain vision and idea about how the game should flow and the story should unfold. But if he's too rigid in this, then it can hurt the enjoyment of the players because it can remove agency and prevent the players from using tactics just because the DM doesn't expect them or may be unprepared for them. Some DMs are better at improv and thinking on the fly than others, and thus can better react to players throwing wrenches in the DM's plans. When you talk to him I would especially focus on how your DM's handling of this has affected your enjoyment of the game, but in a way that is understanding because DMing is a hard job. If you can't come to an agreement in how to manage this character and the summoned creatures that is satisfying for all parties involved (you, the DM, and the other players), then it may be best to just retire the character and roll up a new one.

And it is definitely is a compliment that Rahadin and Strahd see your character as a high-value target. Ideally your companions will take this into consideration, especially if they rely on you not only for battlefield control and support but also to heal. It's also completely in line with Strahd's character, because he would absolutely use tactics like that. He's smart and methodical. I mean, before he became a vampire he was an extremely successful military general and a proven warrior. Even as a vampire he led the people of Barovia to victory over Azlin's army of undead. So he should be even more of a threat than his CR might suggest because of these tactics and military genius.
 

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