D&D 5E Curse of Strahd spoiler-filled general discussion

[Mouseferatu]

I figured we could use a place to discuss the adventure, talk about our reactions to it, etc., without worrying about having to hide spoilers.

Because I'm going to start by talking about some questions and problems, I want to make it clear up front that I love this adventure. I'm tempted to run it, and I haven't said that about a published adventure in a very long time. It's atmospheric, creative, the works.

That said...

1) I was really, really hoping they'd take the opportunity to get rid of the stupid joke names on the crypts beneath Castle Ravenloft. Horror has room for humor--may even require it--but it has to be the right kind of humor. Humor to lighten the mood, not destroy it. Those joke names literally belong on tombstones outside Disney's haunted mansion.

2) Did I miss something, or did the adventure never reveal who stole the champagne "seed" from the winery? The mad druids have one. Baba Lyssaga has one. But the third, the one for which the wereraven who owns the place blames his son? I never saw any talk of where it actually ended up, or who took it.

3) The Amber Temple. No. Just... No. There are some cool ideas there, but the implication that the vestiges trapped within are the mysterious Dark Powers, the beings who made the pact with Strahd and tore Barovia off into its own demiplane? No. Leaving aside the fact that the Dark Powers should never be defined--it ruins the mystique--there is nothing about the vestiges to suggest they're powerful enough to accomplish something like that. It doesn't work, on either an in-game or meta level. (Also, I really dislike the "disposable lich NPC around every corner" trope we see in so many D&D adventures, but that's a separate issue.)

3a) All that said, the one location where it appears a vestige has somehow escaped... Do we think that's an Easter egg nod toward Vecna's escape from Ravenloft, since he was a vestige last we saw of him in 3E?

4) I haven't run the numbers, but I'm a bit concerned that Strahd--for all his cool powers, and all the great ways he can/should be run--may not do enough damage for his CR. That's just a nitpick, though.

Again, I realize this is mostly a complainy post. That's because those are the issues I want to discuss first, not because I think it's in any way a bad adventure. On the contrary, it's one of my favorite non-core D&D purchases in a very long time.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

3a) All that said, the one location where it appears a vestige has somehow escaped... Do we think that's an Easter egg nod toward Vecna's escape from Ravenloft, since he was a vestige last we saw of him in 3E?

You must be misremebering. Vecna has never been a vestige. He was a god last we saw him in 3e and has kept that title in 4e and 5e.

 

[Savage Wombat]

From the comment about humor in the "setting the mood" section, I think the original authors think it's an important part of the tone. YMMV of course.

I'm of two minds about the Amber Temple - I think the implications that vestiges = Dark Powers can be easily ignored, but I'm concerned that it's a far more straightforward dungeon/treasure haul than Ravenloft normally contains. Do you notice how many more magic items can be found there? I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than the entire rest of the adventure combined.

As to Strahd's CR - I think most of the monsters we've seen in the rules are underestimating the power level of an optimized party. I suspect that, rather than fiddle with the numbers, DMs should just aim the party at the castle sooner if they think the PCs are up to it. Why wait for 10th?

 

[Jester David]

1) I was really, really hoping they'd take the opportunity to get rid of the stupid joke names on the crypts beneath Castle Ravenloft. Horror has room for humor--may even require it--but it has to be the right kind of humor. Humor to lighten the mood, not destroy it. Those joke names literally belong on tombstones outside Disney's haunted mansion.

Agreed. I was hoping they'd dump those but instead they added more. Groans.
I was hoping they'd make a few tweaks to the castle, such as adjusting the architecture and height of the floors/towers.

2) Did I miss something, or did the adventure never reveal who stole the champagne "seed" from the winery? The mad druids have one. Baba Lyssaga has one. But the third, the one for which the wereraven who owns the place blames his son? I never saw any talk of where it actually ended up, or who took it.

Hrm... I don't recall seeing that either.
DMsGuide Side Quest?

3) The Amber Temple. No. Just... No. There are some cool ideas there, but the implication that the vestiges trapped within are the mysterious Dark Powers, the beings who made the pact with Strahd and tore Barovia off into its own demiplane? No. Leaving aside the fact that the Dark Powers should never be defined--it ruins the mystique--there is nothing about the vestiges to suggest they're powerful enough to accomplish something like that. It doesn't work, on either an in-game or meta level. (Also, I really dislike the "disposable lich NPC around every corner" trope we see in so many D&D adventures, but that's a separate issue.)

Sweet merciful Odin, yes, that whole section was fail. Defining the Dark Powers, having Strahd make his pact before meeting Tatyana, the fact it's high level and thus likely after or in the middle of Castle Ravenloft, and so much more. It's really just a giant problematic section that is better to ignore.

3a) All that said, the one location where it appears a vestige has somehow escaped... Do we think that's an Easter egg nod toward Vecna's escape from Ravenloft, since he was a vestige last we saw of him in 3E?

Maybe. I can't imagine them going back to undead so soon though.

4) I haven't run the numbers, but I'm a bit concerned that Strahd--for all his cool powers, and all the great ways he can/should be run--may not do enough damage for his CR. That's just a nitpick, though.

Yeah. Low damage and low hp. If the PCs get lucky they should rip him apart. The DM really needs to cheat to keep him going.


Watching the live stream of the Perkins game and something else jumps out at me: there's not a lot of reasons not to go charging right into the castle from the village of Barovia. That's what the original module had you do, and since this replicates that whole section there's a lot pushing these character starting the tale to charge there to save Gertrude. But they'd get ripped apart.
So there's this awkward bit where you have to push the players to adventure for a few weeks elsewhere in Barovia and get back to Gertrude weeks later, and still have her fine and safe in the Castle.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You must be misremebering. Vecna has never been a vestige. He was a god last we saw him in 3e and has kept that title in 4e and 5e.

Gah! You're right. I somehow had a synaptic misfire between Vecna (god, briefly stuck in Ravenloft) and Acererak (vestige).

Bad Ari! Bad!

 

[Psikerlord#]

Agreed. I was hoping they'd dump those but instead they added more. Groans.
I was hoping they'd make a few tweaks to the castle, such as adjusting the architecture and height of the floors/towers.


Hrm... I don't recall seeing that either.
DMsGuide Side Quest?


Sweet merciful Odin, yes, that whole section was fail. Defining the Dark Powers, having Strahd make his pact before meeting Tatyana, the fact it's high level and thus likely after or in the middle of Castle Ravenloft, and so much more. It's really just a giant problematic section that is better to ignore.


Maybe. I can't imagine them going back to undead so soon though.


Yeah. Low damage and low hp. If the PCs get lucky they should rip him apart. The DM really needs to cheat to keep him going.


Watching the live stream of the Perkins game and something else jumps out at me: there's not a lot of reasons not to go charging right into the castle from the village of Barovia. That's what the original module had you do, and since this replicates that whole section there's a lot pushing these character starting the tale to charge there to save Gertrude. But they'd get ripped apart.
So there's this awkward bit where you have to push the players to adventure for a few weeks elsewhere in Barovia and get back to Gertrude weeks later, and still have her fine and safe in the Castle.

Ah - well that is a major oversight. There should definitely not be any "dont go to the castle yet, we arent high enough level yet" metagaming going on. Bad plot!

 

[Mouseferatu]

From the comment about humor in the "setting the mood" section, I think the original authors think it's an important part of the tone. YMMV of course.

Humor is important. That humor is the wrong kind, though. You can't include humor that makes the world itself or the villain seem cartoonishly goofy, or takes the players/audience completely out of the experience. There's plenty of way to add in some funny that fits.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Yeah. Low damage and low hp. If the PCs get lucky they should rip him apart. The DM really needs to cheat to keep him going.

I disagree. Strahd is fine. His damage is actually pretty high and his ability to disengage from the battle whenever he chooses while they can't follow him makes him very dangerous due to his regen.

Strahd's not a straight up fighter, he is a hit and runner.

 

[Bruce Vistani]

I still haven't fully digested the adventure but my thoughts are that Strahd should have some strong need of the PCs. That they would find themselves in his service, perhaps on the low to mid level, rather than constantly battling against him would greatly enhance the module and defy expectations.

Perhaps only the PCs can help Strahd escape his Borovian prison? To a certain extent this is covered by his objective to find a successor but that objective seems a bit nebulous and unexplored. It might be he needs the PCs to capture Mordenkainen or retrieve something from a good-protected location and in exchange he promises them release. Maybe he is even true to his word and its up to the PCs to decide whether to take him on at all. They might think he's an ok guy!

I have a hunch the Ireena subplot won't fly with my group. They love their chaos and the crazy basterds are just as likely to turn her over to Strahd as to protect her.

 

[Jester David]

I disagree. Strahd is fine. His damage is actually pretty high and his ability to disengage from the battle whenever he chooses while they can't follow him makes him very dangerous due to his regen.

Strahd's not a straight up fighter, he is a hit and runner.

Kinda.

He's an appropriate challenge for the end of the adventure, especially if played smart, but he's not the right CR.
Including resistances and regeneration (which will almost certainly not come into play), vampires have a defensive CR of 10-11 and the reliable damage of a CR 5-6 creature. Including some of their special abilities, they should really be a CR 9 or 10, with the spellcaster *maybe* an 11 or 12. The extra damage Strahd does compared to a regular vampire doesn't really do much to change that, and his spell choices are equally minor. He's a CR 12. An appropriate boss for a level 10 party.
To be a CR 15, Strahd should be as deadly as a death tyrant, a purple worm, or an adult green dragon. His damage output would need to be doubled and he needs more health.

A creature's Challenge Rating should reflect their absolute threat, not their threat when played by a master tactician. A cunning DM can make kobolds a threat. This also relies on the DM having better strategy than all their players… combined.
Plus, with his current hp, a lucky crit or a party readying the right actions could drop him in a single round. You can't hit and run when you're dead.

Even then, there's a fine line where hit-and-run tactics are making a monster a smart opponent and a challenge and when an encounter just ceases to be fun. If the players can't do anything and are just taking damage, then Strahd isn't a monster, he's a terrain feature.
It makes sense for Strahd to attack when the party is distracted or vulnerable or separated. But it also makes sense for him to send all the monsters to attack at once en mass when the party is sleeping while holding their friends and loved ones hostage… when the party is level 6 and before they're remotely a threat. And then display their remains as a warning for future adventurers.
Strahd should have the entire Evil Overlord List memorized. But that quickly ceases to be fun. So the DM needs to find the balance between being effective and being fun, which is tricky and takes some gamemastering chops.