D&D 5E Curse of Strahd spoiler-filled general discussion

[DeanP]

I personally loved the Gulthias homage. Sunless Citadel was an excellent adventure, and it was the first D&D adventure I ran for my children, a good friend and his son. They loved it and enjoyed the entire Ashardalon cycle, and they're still playing those characters converted to 5e, so I personally appreciated the homage. Plus, you have Blight Trees. love it. I stretched the Gulthias, Nighfang Spire plotlines to give Gulthias even more gravitas, so when they encounter a Blight Tree it should evoke some great experiences and help maintain the continuity of the setting. Gulthias was a memorable villain and I like the homage. The Mordenkainen thing was a "whoa, say what?!" moment for me. I run my stories in the World of Greyhawk, and I was very excited about the implications of using Mordenkainen, but wished they individualized him rather than have the DM use the archmage stat block with the few listed changes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Ok, I'm having mixed feelings on the homages/imports from other settings/stories. Specifically, the Guthias tree (which was destroyed in the Sunless Citadel) and the Mad Archmage/Mordenkainen. On the one hand, it's cool to see those elements referenced and it shows the strength of Barovia to hold those things, but on the other hand, it adds little to the plot and could've been unique, original characters for all its worth.

I'm also not entirely happy with the canon changes regarding Strahd, the Dark Powers, Madam Eva, the Morninglord, or Van Richten. I get its a reimagining of the the adventure, not the setting, but changing parts of those key elements feels like they don't care about the old setting. (Its known Tracy and Laura never cared about the setting the module spawned, and was bitter about the Soth-in-loft thing, so I wonder if the canon contradiction was intentional).

As an adventure, it looks fantastic. As a reboot of the Ravenloft mythos, I'm less impressed.

The Gulthias thing only bothers me inasmuch as it reinforces the default MM fluff - which is Gulthias all the way down. It's not like RL can't have OTHER reasons to have horrible monster-trees.

Which canon changes bother you about the NPC's here specifically? I didn't notice anything too egregious on first pass, but I'm not the most well-versed on RL lore, either. I'd ask mostly because I might like to use the old stories instead, if they're very different.

 

[77IM]

I looooooooove the Amber Temple. That is exactly the kind of adventure I'd love to run. Some of my players would take the power from the vestiges theirin, hehehe... That it is so weird and out-of-place (I get kind of an Egyptian vibe from that picture of the amber golem) just increases the scariness of it. And I don't mind the implication that the vestiges are connected to the Dark Powers somehow; it seems unlikely that they are the Dark Powers, though, since they seem not to have much power left (at least not the kind of power Strahd is tossing around, and certainly not enough power to carve out a demiplane...).

I'd also like to take this opportunity to praise Chris Perkins' writing style. It's super clear when it needs to be -- terse and precise. But in other places the imagery and word-choice is very evocative. (I hate to use that word. Perkins would have thought of a much more evocative way to say that.) His descriptions of places and NPCs usually contains exactly the amount of information I need to improvise the rest. And I also found the organization of the adventure particularly good; location-based is great for this style of adventure, but the entries also contain a lot of cross-references to other locations, and Developments based on what might have happened elsewhere or previously. Color me impressed.

 

[Jester David]

I have a few big problems with the module: it runs roughshod over the setting, it's a rehash of something that's been done (multiple times) before, and the goals & hooks for the PCs aren't always clear.
I would have liked the whole thing more if it wasn't "here's I6: Ravenloft… again" but instead "here's a sequel telling of what happens when Strahd returns from the grave." It's cool being able to play through a classic… but anyone can do that with a cheap PDF of I6 off DMsGuild/ DnDClassics. You can pretty much update the adventure on the fly. So Curse of Strahd is basically something you can do on your own with a whole schwack of filler to get you to the right level.

But my biggest problem with the adventure is Strahd himself.

Curse of Strahd is a larger adventure than I6. Strahd should be in the center of everything, but a lot of the module is just dealing with other problems. Some of those are his doing (as side evil schemes) but a lot is just separate, and there's no cohesion. His motives just aren't there. He's actually got fewer evil schemes on the go compared to the original.
Strahd's not really doing anything apart from sitting in his castle being evil. Which is fine for a location based adventure where you're expected to go right to that castle and kill him, at most spending two or three sessions dealing with the Devil Strahd. But for a larger local and regional sandbox, Strahd is pretty absent. Everyone is talking about him but he's only really a presence and not an active participant.

Even the otherwise mediocre Expedition to Castle Ravenloft realized this and gave Strahd a half dozen secondary goals.

His two main goals in CoS are Ireena Kolyana and finding an heir. However, there's good odds Ireena gets taken out of the equation fairly early on, and Strahd doesn't strike me as the kind of dude who would surrender power. And once Ireena does get removed from play the heir motive is gone as well, as the PCs become Strahd's enemies. So for half the adventure, Strahd really lack a motivation or a goal beyond "kill the PCs", which doesn't work since - at that point - killing the characters should be damn easy.

He needs a scheme. Something he's working towards. Something that adds a time element and some pressure, so the players' don't slacken near the end and leisurely explore the castle over a number of weeks

 

[Remathilis]

Which canon changes bother you about the NPC's here specifically? I didn't notice anything too egregious on first pass, but I'm not the most well-versed on RL lore, either. I'd ask mostly because I might like to use the old stories instead, if they're very different.

As mentioned before, Strahd always forged a pact with a being called Death, after Tatiyana rejected him for Sergie. The whole "forged a pact earlier for power" makes his passion far less tragic.

Madam Eva having a bloodline relation to Strahd smacked as unnecessary. Eva has been a sometimes ally of Strahd long before they made them siblings. At least she's not a hag in this version (unlike Expedition).

The Morninglord was accidentally created by Jandar Sunstar, a gold-elf vampire, who was a guest of Strahd during Vampires of the Mists. Now, he's a Barovian deity that predates Strahd.

Van Richten was just a mundane monster hunter, never a spellcaster. Previously, his class was Thief and he used his skills to hunt vampires. Admittedly, its the least of my complaints; I mean at least he's ALIVE again...

I guess my point was there was plenty of lore they could have used or just left vague, but they opted to re-write history. I can't help but feel that was a deliberate action to distance this from the setting as much as possible.

 

[77IM]

Even the otherwise mediocre Expedition to Castle Ravenloft realized this and gave Strahd a half dozen secondary goals.

What were they??? This is exactly the sort of info people can use to enhance the adventure and tailor it to their preferences.

 

[Remathilis]

What were they??? This is exactly the sort of info people can use to enhance the adventure and tailor it to their preferences.

Off the top of my head...

Undying legions: Strahd is creating a zombie army via a zombie plague. The plague is affecting the village of Barovia.

Brook No Rival: three hags seek to overthrow Strahd. Strahd uses the PCs to destroy his enemies.

Descent into Madness: Strand is being driven insane by a force from the Far Realm. His actions are erratic and disjointed.

Untamed Allies: Strahd is courting the werewolves of the woods to be his allies. He offers them aid and free reign to slaughter.

Dynasty: Strahd seeks strong creatures to embrace and make his vampire servants, turning allies and party members into his vampire servants.

 

[77IM]

Oh, those are good. I especially like the one about "Strahd uses the PCs to destroy his enemies."

 

[Jester David]

Which canon changes bother you about the NPC's here specifically? I didn't notice anything too egregious on first pass, but I'm not the most well-versed on RL lore, either. I'd ask mostly because I might like to use the old stories instead, if they're very different.

[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] lists off most of them. But I'll reiterate.

Madame Eva goes from being the head of the Zarovan branch of the Vistani to a non-Vistani. Which is odd given the Vistani can tell their own and don't like those of mixed blood or outsiders.
The ring of choking fog around the village of Barovia is gone and now surrounds the entire nation (which is smaller). The Vistani potion doesn't do anything.
VanRichten is a spellcaster/cleric when he was always presented as a rogue prior. And he lived centuries after the Ireena Kolyana incarnation of Tatyana. He's also very un-vanRichten, burning his books and planning the brutal murder of Vistani.
And the Morninglord cult was founded in the book Vampire of the Mists well after Strahd killed his family at what I'm calling "the Black Wedding".

Now, canon additions are not a huge deal. Adding Baba Lysaga? Sure. Some werewolves in the woods, a winery, and chapel to St. Markov? Why not. Mother Night as an ancient Barovian goddess? Okay. Because these are additive and not revisionary.
But changing canon? No. Bad. Especially when it'd be easy to just accommodate the old canon with a single line. Curse of Strahd does its own thing and just pulls classic names from the campaign setting and uses them for new characters. Like a bad episode of Arrow where it brings in a classic DC character or concept as little more than an Easter Egg. Like they couldn't be bothered to do more than minimum research.

But the biggest slight is Strahd, who forms a pact with "Death" prior to meeting Tatyana, was already evil (being a conqueror and killing & mutilating a silver dragon), and already seeking immortality. Tatyana moves from becoming the tragic loss that drives him to evil and more the convenient excuse for murder. "Death" didn't approach him at his weakest when he was lamenting not being able to claim Tatyana and tempted him to darkness, but instead he actively sought them out prior to meeting her.
It changes his story from "I love my brother and family, but I will turn on them for you!!!!" to "Meh, I was gonna kill everyone anyway. Might as well get started." Which is a HUGE change.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Brook No Rival: three hags seek to overthrow Strahd. Strahd uses the PCs to destroy his enemies.

I like this because I'm looking for a better hook for Death House, and that bit of the adventure has links to the coven of hags in the mill outside of Vallaki via the Durst family. NOW, there's a reason for Strahd to send them into the house - maybe the thing inside is actually something that the hags are brewing up using the ghosts therein. Also gives a reason for Morgantha to be in town - she's checking up on her gestating little menace.

So consider that yoinked.

And yes, my van Richten will be a rogue (come on, man, you don't give an expy of Van Helsing magic), my Madam Eva will be a Vistani (why does she need to be part of Strahd's FUBAR'd family?), and my "pact with Death" will be ambiguous (though the vestiges can still hang around just being captive and evil) and happen AFTER meeting Tatyana.

I like the idea of Strahd being kind of a bastard even before he was a vampire (it's more believable to me if it was a steady descent rather than One Big Event, though that would definitely be the moment that sealed the deal), so the dead silver dragon is going to stay. And I'm not too worried about mashing together Ireena and van Richten - the way souls work, these don't even have to be the SAME Ireena and Van Richten (they die and reincarnate over and over again, which is a nice addition to the setting, I think).

The small size of this place is bugging me a bit (the party moves twelve hexes an hour?!), but I don't know that that's not just some adjustment I'm doing.