D&D 5E Curse of Strahd spoiler-filled general discussion

[Jester David]

Personally, I don't see the original telling of Strahd as being a very good representation of gothic writing or even a very good representation of writing at all. It's VERY Anakin. Couple rough points in his life and suddenly has a vision of doom and decides to save the Evil Emperor for no good raisin and then every bad thing he saw coming happens because it's all his fault.

I like it better than the current version where he was just born evil. Just evil with reason. Iago with his "motiveless malice". Just born evil like a bad movie sociopath.

*shrug* as a long-time comic book reader you have one of two choices when dealing with retcons:
A: Deal and keep reading, knowing it will likely change again, and again, and again in the future.
B: Stop reading.

I choose A.

Meanwhile, I stopped reading Marvel completely after One More Day when Joe Quesada removed every Spider-man comic I'd ever owned or read from canon. And did a similar thing after the New 52 for DC.
I used to be *obsessed* with comics but haven't even glanced at one it years.

Canon is a tool and not a crutch. And with Wikipedia and online tools, there's no excuses for just ignoring it. That's laziness. Put in the damn effort and work around what's been established.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Thing is, Strahd's unrequited love/passion/lust/whatever for Tatyanna was never a "sudden snap." It was the final straw.

He was cold, violent, covetous, envious of Sergei's youth and people's affection for him, bitter about growing older, all of that. But it was only Tatyanna that finally tipped the scales to where he became desperate enough to make his Pact with Death. The idea that he was a "nice guy" who "snapped" is completely incongruous with existing canon.

It's not a choice between "Strahd the conqueror" and "tragic story of love and obsession." It's always been both. Going with just one--in either direction--is a step down and a weakening of the character and story.

 

[Sunseeker]

I like it better than the current version where he was just born evil. Just evil with reason. Iago with his "motiveless malice". Just born evil like a bad movie sociopath.

See, I don't see Nu Strahd as being "born evil". I see him as a more typified example of classic European, particularly Eastern European nobility. He wasn't born evil, he was born rich. Worse than being born rich, he was born a lord. His job was to rule the people who under common belief at the time, were too stupid to rule themselves and of course, owed every last drop of their meager existence to their Lords. This sets up a very strange mindset in people. As [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] points out, Strahd doesn't think about people like you and I think about people. They're not people to him, they're subjects and Strahd is tasked with the difficult position of having to protect them from without and protect them from within. Much like Anakin he does this in a creepy possessive way. Meanwhile, he younger brother doesn't have to do jack squat! He gets to romance the ladies, get drunk at parties and nobody really cares because it's Strahd who has to be the heir and his brother is just a backup. Strahd is resentful of his role but knows nothing else. For him there is no escape, so much like Barovia, there is no escape for anyone else. Strahd will become King. Barovia will become his. Tatyana will love him. It is merely a matter of applying enough pressure over enough time. And as Nu Strahd shows, the amount of pressure is ever increasing, but upon him, and the pressure he is exerting.

Plus, also as [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] points out, the Nu Strahd story eliminates the "victim blaming" of "I went evil because I got friendzoned, so it's not really my fault, it's her fault for not loving me!" That's fine to have Strahd think that, but to have it written as actual backstory is just terrible.

Meanwhile, I stopped reading Marvel completely after One More Day when Joe Quesada removed every Spider-man comic I'd ever owned or read from canon. And did a similar thing after the New 52 for DC.
I used to be *obsessed* with comics but haven't even glanced at one it years.

Well then I suggest you crawl a little deeper in your cave there, because I'll give you a heads up: It hasn't stopped and it isn't going to. But if its any consolation, the One More Day thing was undone.

Canon is a tool and not a crutch. And with Wikipedia and online tools, there's no excuses for just ignoring it. That's laziness. Put in the damn effort and work around what's been established.

There are great excuses for ignoring canon. X-men, Superman, Spiderman, Iron Man, Batman are all great examples for ignoring canon, because after 800+ issues, the ground has been covered. The story has been told. They've fought the gods and lost. They've fought the gods and won. They've rewritten history so they never existed, they've rewritten history so they always exited. They've been to the future, they've been to the past. They've blown up the universe. They're remade the universe. There's volumes upon volumes of bad writing, metgaming, powercreep, sexism, racism, and god knows what else in there.

Ravenloft is no exception.

 

[evilbob]

Undying legions: Strahd is creating a zombie army via a zombie plague. The plague is affecting the village of Barovia.

Brook No Rival: three hags seek to overthrow Strahd. Strahd uses the PCs to destroy his enemies.

Descent into Madness: Strand is being driven insane by a force from the Far Realm. His actions are erratic and disjointed.

Untamed Allies: Strahd is courting the werewolves of the woods to be his allies. He offers them aid and free reign to slaughter.

Dynasty: Strahd seeks strong creatures to embrace and make his vampire servants, turning allies and party members into his vampire servants.

Those are correct, except Strahd only has ONE goal - one of those five, or "no goal," determined randomly (or by the DM). Additionally, he wants Ireena, but that's a fixed goal - it's always his goal each time.

His two main goals in CoS are Ireena Kolyana and finding an heir. However, there's good odds Ireena gets taken out of the equation fairly early on, and Strahd doesn't strike me as the kind of dude who would surrender power. And once Ireena does get removed from play the heir motive is gone as well, as the PCs become Strahd's enemies. So for half the adventure, Strahd really lack a motivation or a goal beyond "kill the PCs", which doesn't work since - at that point - killing the characters should be damn easy.

I agree it's a bit weird. Importing one or more of the above goals would work as well. It's kind of implied that he is helping the werewolves, so that's already kind of in play. The first three are also specific to the other campaign. Which leaves "making the PCs his servants" which is already kind of something he's doing as well.

Getting the PCs to off his enemies - get rid of the Order of the Dragon guys, lead him to the vampire hunter, and depose the bad but not utterly evil Burgomaster of the middle town would be good goals for him to have.

 

[evilbob]

Getting back to the OP, I just finished looking at the town of Vallaki, and that seems a little fraught. I mean, there's about a 75% chance the PCs are going to tick off the current burgomaster, making them pariahs in the town. And if they do get rid of him, the only one who is going to step in to fill the vacuum is much, much worse. So if you manage to get rid of both, who's left?

At least the church could become a relatively safe place to dump your NPCs, assuming the party solves the quest there quickly and it doesn't get completely destroyed.

Also, are there any Vistani mentioned who AREN'T in league with Strahd? The intro leads off with the idea that the Vistani are mostly independent but a few are in league - but then every single one mentioned (including both of the camps) are all in league.

 

[Patrick McGill]

I'd like to throw my two cents in and say I really like the Amber Temple. It's a good change of pace, so to speak, from the rest of the adventure. I really like the idea that the evil behind Strahd's rise to power is ancient and terrible.

That being said, I never liked any of the expanded lore beyond the original I6 module.

 

[Remathilis]

Also, are there any Vistani mentioned who AREN'T in league with Strahd? The intro leads off with the idea that the Vistani are mostly independent but a few are in league - but then every single one mentioned (including both of the camps) are all in league.

Ezmerelda, but I don't think that's what you mean...

 

[Jester David]

See, I don't see Nu Strahd as being "born evil". I see him as a more typified example of classic European, particularly Eastern European nobility. He wasn't born evil, he was born rich. Worse than being born rich, he was born a lord. His job was to rule the people who under common belief at the time, were too stupid to rule themselves and of course, owed every last drop of their meager existence to their Lords. This sets up a very strange mindset in people. As [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] points out, Strahd doesn't think about people like you and I think about people. They're not people to him, they're subjects and Strahd is tasked with the difficult position of having to protect them from without and protect them from within. Much like Anakin he does this in a creepy possessive way. Meanwhile, he younger brother doesn't have to do jack squat! He gets to romance the ladies, get drunk at parties and nobody really cares because it's Strahd who has to be the heir and his brother is just a backup. Strahd is resentful of his role but knows nothing else. For him there is no escape, so much like Barovia, there is no escape for anyone else. Strahd will become King. Barovia will become his. Tatyana will love him. It is merely a matter of applying enough pressure over enough time. And as Nu Strahd shows, the amount of pressure is ever increasing, but upon him, and the pressure he is exerting.

So he wasn't born evil, but being a rich nobleman just made him a supervillain. See, I don't like tha: there's nothing that separates Strahd from any other nobleman. He's just rich and possessive. That's a personality, not a background. The trigger for him being evil is absent. The moment where he really falls into corruption - or in the words of the Ravenloft setting, the Act of Ultimate Darkness that makes him a darklord - is absent.

Because he was already super evil mass murderer who forced an alliance with dark forces for immortality, killing his brother just seems like another day. Heck, it's even impulsive act in response to Tatyana rather than sought out and premeditated like all the other stuff he'd done.

Well then I suggest you crawl a little deeper in your cave there, because I'll give you a heads up: It hasn't stopped and it isn't going to.

But it doesn't matter to me if they haven't stopped because I stopped giving them my money 8 and 5 years respectively. The rare times I do buy a comic now, I give my cash to their competitors.
I didn't like it so I voted with my wallet and haven't looked back.
It's like $50+ a month I get to spend on tabletop or video gaming.

 

[Uller]

I'm going to use the Amber Temple, but I'm not going to have these things be the Dark Powers. They're just vestiges of power trapped in Ravenloft. How did Strahd become a vampire? NOBODY KNOWS AND IT WILL STAY THAT WAY.

Exactly. Not all mysteries are meant to be solved. When running homebrews, I place hooks and clues to various things for the PCs to find (about 2 or 3 per adventure). They frequently expire and my players wonder about them..."So what was going on in that town where once every 7 years merchants from out of town go missing."...you missed it...I guess you'll have to wait 7 years to find out...the reality is I have no idea where they would have lead.

Personally, I'm having problems with roping the PC's into Death House as an intro. "The mists make you do it" is so heavy-handed and arbitrary, starting the adventure like that is a clear indicator that the DM is basically going to Make You Adventure, so either go along with the plan or look for another game. BOOOOO.

I don't have problems with APs having a railroad approach to the start of the adventure. APs are a big investment of time for players and DMs alike and I wouldn't embark on them without player buy-in so providing an intro that is essentially a big sign that reads "THIS WAY TO CURSE OF STRAHD...NO EXIT" is fine, imo. I've played in many games where the DM was unable to get the PCs onto his plot-line and we felt like we were stumbling around looking for the hook and felt like saying "Just tell us where the adventure starts already! We're tired of wandering around talking to random NPCs!"

A clever and experienced DM can hew is own path into the AP. Some are better at it than others. In my old age, I've grown so tired of it I prefer to start my adventures with some crisis. The players can figure out how they came to be there and their backstory later. I always fall back to action movies...Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is, to me, the iconic D&D adventure.

"So you're in the tavern and have the gem you were hired to find. You are sitting at the table with the man that hired you. You don't trust him..." how and why you came to be there can be filled in later. Every adventure starts somewhere. So a campaign may as well start with the adventure.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Romeo, the poor kid from the wrong side of town falls for Juliet, the rich girl with all the right curves! But alas! It is not meant to be! So Romeo dedicates himself to becoming rich and powerful so that her family might respect him. Alas all he knows is crime, but he sure does know his crime, so Romeo becomes a powerful crime boss! He spends years of his life moving up the ranks and soon he is rich and powerful, even moreso than Juliet's family, but alas they are old money and see him as new money, unworthy of their bloodline. Angered by this, Romeo seeks aid from the Dark Powers to twist the fates and make it appear that he is indeed Old Money. But alas it is not enough, for Juliet does not love him! Instead she has fallen for his humble brother, who owns nothing more than a farm. Romeo has everything! Money! Power! But now the one thing he wants is beyond his reach forever! In a fit of rage he destroy's Juliet's family, his own family, even his brother and Juliet! Saddened by his loss he strikes a new deal with the Dark Powers so that Juliet may live forever and one day love him!

Am I wrong, or is this the plot of Wuthering Heights?