D&D 5E Curse of Strahd spoiler-filled general discussion

It changes his story from "I love my brother and family, but I will turn on them for you!!!!" to "Meh, I was gonna kill everyone anyway. Might as well get started." Which is a HUGE change.

I get that you didn't like the changes, but I don't think your depiction is a fair characterization.

Strahd emulates daddy for approval, Dad dies before giving him the thumbs up.
Strahd builds big ass castle for mommy dearest's approval, mommy favors younger slacker bother, and dies before moving into castle.
Strahd has bother move into castle, girl of his dreams chooses brother over him.
Strahd flips his wig and kills both of them.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I know I'm going to be adding in some of the plotlines that have appeared in the other Barovian adaptations, because as far as I'm concerned, the more stuff and areas in the valley, the more interesting it will be. So for instance... from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft I'm going to keep Lysaga Hill as an area, probably with a small coven of Barovian Witches. As the ruins of Lysaga Hill are on the road from the Village of Barovia to the Castle... it will introduce the concept of the Barovian Witches early, as well as indicate there is Lysaga out there. I think I might also re-introduce the three fanes of Barovia... the three unhallowed landmarks that need to be cleansed in order to help weaken Strahd. I'm afraid that since I intend on doing a live tarokka reading that I might very well get like five areas that are all in the village or in the castle proper, thus reducing the reason for the group to venture west past the castle to find Vallaki, Kresk and all the other locations. But if I move some of the fanes... like change the fane at the Vistani camp at the Tser Pool to the werewolf caves, and the Lysaga Hill fane to the Ruins of Berez... and then make mention of them in the Tome of Strahd... it'll help sending them out throughout the land.

I also am thinking of re-introducing a few things from the Fair Barovia adventure that [MENTION=607]Klaus[/MENTION] did for 4E. I really like the Ba'al Verzi assassins guild, and think having a few breadcrumbs for them might be a cool hook-- especially since I intend on putting character creation on a long leash... meaning that if a player wanted to be a Rogue and then be an Assassin, they'd need to find a trainer/method to learn the trade. So dropping hints of the Ba'al Verzi might inspire a PC or two. Plus... I also like the idea of Leo Dilysnia perhaps finding his way back to undeath and remain a thorn in Strahd's side, rather than just be a pile of bones in Wachterhaus. Also add in the ideas of a new Dukkar on the hunt for the Vistani, plus adding in the location of the Monastery of the White Sun somewhere along the road heading towards the Ruins of Berez would give potential Monk players a location to learn/get trained/gain influence.

By combining info from Curse, Expedition, Fair, plus a handful of other modules that have a distinct Ravenloft flair. I'm definitely incorporating A Rhyme Gone Wrong from Dungeon 217 because it has an awesome Children of the Cornish vibe-- parents magically aslumbered while the kids are out playing on their own after having made a deal with an evil fey-- that I think would work really well with Baba Lysaga. Or perhaps even Baba Yaga? Another thing from EtCR was that there were three hags that were Strahd's enemies that controlled the three fanes (of which they made Madam Eva one)... but perhaps I could adapt it such that there are three Babas in the valley, each of them watching over one of the fanes-- Lysaga, Yaga, and another one (which I'll make up, or maybe make the hag from Old Bonegrinder a Baba as well-- Baba Roga perhaps?). Put Baba Yaga in the Ivlis Marsh (watching over the Swamp Fane), Baba Lysaga watches over the Bog Fane in the Ruins of Berez, and Baba Roga and her daughters watch over the Mountain Fane at Old Bonegrinder (while capturing children and making them into pies.) Lots of different ways to go.

I'm really looking forward to start mushing all these things together to expand Curse out even further.
 
Last edited:

I get that you didn't like the changes, but I don't think your depiction is a fair characterization.

Strahd emulates daddy for approval, Dad dies before giving him the thumbs up.
Strahd builds big ass castle for mommy dearest's approval, mommy favors younger slacker bother, and dies before moving into castle.
Strahd has bother move into castle, girl of his dreams chooses brother over him.
Strahd flips his wig and kills both of them.
The first two are new backgrounds for this module. That I don't mind.

The thing is, he doesn't "flip his wig".
Before Sergei and his bride have even arrived, Strahd has completed his war of conquest (rather than fighting to repel the invading Tergs like in I, Strahd), killed a silver dragon & mutilated its corpse because it opposed his wanton warring, and sought immortality & made a deal with the Dark Powers/ the Vestiges of the Amber Temple.

That's a HUGE personality shift.
Rather than Tatyana being the reason for Strahd's fall, she's pretty much incidental. He was already going to become an evil vampire monster, he just hadn't picked a sacrifice yet. The temptation of forbidden love didn't drive him to darkness, it just picked the target.
 


That's a HUGE personality shift.
Rather than Tatyana being the reason for Strahd's fall, she's pretty much incidental. He was already going to become an evil vampire monster, he just hadn't picked a sacrifice yet. The temptation of forbidden love didn't drive him to darkness, it just picked the target.

I honestly like the newer, more conquerer-styled Strahd than the love-sick one. I mean really? He went evil because he got shunned by the girl he liked? Talk about "nice guy" syndrome. It sounds like some kind of bad joke, or a really creepy letter you'd get in the mail after dumping a guy. Strahd the warrior-conquerer? Good. Strahd the warrior-conquerer who sought greater and greater conquests because the one conquest he truly wanted was always out of reach? Even better. Strahd the warrior-conquerer who sought greater and greater conquests because the one conquest he truly wanted was always out of reach and then she went for his brother and he turned on them and killed them? Much better.

Strahd the emo kid who got friendzoned and went crazy? Eh....not so much.

And yes, I played through old Ravenloft.
 


I honestly like the newer, more conquerer-styled Strahd than the love-sick one. I mean really? He went evil because he got shunned by the girl he liked? Talk about "nice guy" syndrome. It sounds like some kind of bad joke, or a really creepy letter you'd get in the mail after dumping a guy. Strahd the warrior-conquerer? Good. Strahd the warrior-conquerer who sought greater and greater conquests because the one conquest he truly wanted was always out of reach? Even better. Strahd the warrior-conquerer who sought greater and greater conquests because the one conquest he truly wanted was always out of reach and then she went for his brother and he turned on them and killed them? Much better.

Strahd the emo kid who got friendzoned and went crazy? Eh....not so much.

And yes, I played through old Ravenloft.

To me it feels like if they redid the Star Wars prequels and instead of Anakin being a pretty good Jedi with some dark leanings before he was pushed over the edge and became Vader, he was a colossal monster. He waged the Clone Wars for conquest instead of defending the Republic, killed Wookies because they got in his way and turned them into rugs, and was already plotting the eradication of the Jedi Order. He went as far as to personally seek out Darth Sidius solely for purposes of becoming a Darth. And after arrangements for becoming a Sith Lord are being made Palpatine says "Hey, kill the Jedi right now and I'll save Padme." And Vader responded with, "Sure, it's already on my to-do list. I'll just move it to the top."

Or, to pick an example that is less auto-disliked, it's would be akin to Romeo and Juliet if they were both terminally ill and going to die anyway. It still might be sad and a bummer, but it's no longer a tragedy. There's never a point in the story where things could change and become a comedy, no turning point where the protagonist shifts from hero to villain.

That's what I dislike. There's no tragedy in Strahd anymore, which sucks ALL the drama out of events because there was never a choice, never a moment where he could have decided to take a different path. There's no emotion because the fall is a foregone conclusion. Which is one of the big themes of Gothic literature and horror: people making the wrong decision and the loss that follows. Gothic literature very much IS emo. Strahd was very much playing to a trope of the genre. And moving away from that diminishes Strahd from a tragic villain who fell for love to just another generic capital-E Evil monster to be killed. He's generic. Just another vampire.


The thing is, regardless of which you like better (or how much you hated the prequels) one is already canon. It's possible to retcon and rewrite unpopular canon or "fix" things, but that's tricky and shouldn't be done lightly.
As a rule, writers should respect the IP they're hired to update and not make changes without reason. Writers are the stewards of the IP, and they change to accommodate canon, not the other way round.
This is a reoccurring problem with WotC and the current team. Like how the entire modus operandi of the Cult of the Dragon changed and contorted to fit the Tyranny of Dragons storyline.
 

For me, the conqueror angle helps set up his tragic flaw. He didn't get furious over Tatyana because of true lost love - he never even really loved her. He doesn't know what "love" really is. He just wanted her. He's possessive, desperately so, and conqueror-Strahd sets that up nicely. Tatyana isn't the cause of her fall (none of that victim-blaming!), she's just the precipitating event, the thing he wants the most that he is never allowed to have, the last thing in his life that refused to love him, and not because of some flaw in her, but because of some flaw in him that he refused to acknowledge or deal with.

He didn't plunge his entire realm into the depths of darkness because he was emotionally hurt, he did it because he thinks he owns them. That works well with the tone of the adventure - nothing escapes. Strahd clings to everything, a miser to the last. That drives home the possessiveness and the arrogance.

That's not incompatible with him defending the land at some point and falling at his failure to win over Tatyana, it just means that he didn't swing from "nice guy" to "vampire overlord" overnight. He always had that "vampire overlord" in him. He never confronted it, never redeemed himself, always blamed other people, and then The Dark Powers just drew it out.

That said, I like the timeline where he sees and covets Tatyana and THEN makes the pact - her as the precipitating factor in his fall is a pretty key element of the story, and removing her from that moment gives his obsession less impact. If her presence was a bigger event in his life, his obsession makes sense (he died for her, even if she didn't want him to, never asked him to, and is repulsed by the idea of it).
 
Last edited:

To me it feels like if they redid the Star Wars prequels and instead of Anakin being a pretty good Jedi with some dark leanings before he was pushed over the edge and became Vader, he was a colossal monster. He waged the Clone Wars for conquest instead of defending the Republic, killed Wookies because they got in his way and turned them into rugs, and was already plotting the eradication of the Jedi Order. He went as far as to personally seek out Darth Sidius solely for purposes of becoming a Darth. And after arrangements for becoming a Sith Lord are being made Palpatine says "Hey, kill the Jedi right now and I'll save Padme." And Vader responded with, "Sure, it's already on my to-do list. I'll just move it to the top."
Anakin's story was horrible. Lucas' writing was horrible. Having it be nothing more than backstory that Vader was once a great and noble Jedi who fell to the dark side because he had a lot of unresolved issues was okay. Not great, but okay. When it was actually written out? It was horrible. Bad people killed my mom! I'll use my great power to murder them! Bad people may kill my wife in the future! I'll use my great power to kill everyone! It was whiny, pathetic, and just downright bad. I'd be MUCH happeier if they rewrote Anakin to be a bad-guy from the start!

Anakin: lowly child was raised as a slave but was too old and too angry for Jedi training. At some point he discovered his latent force abilities and used them to seek revenge against those who had imprisoned him and his mother and harmed all his poor-kid friends. But soon the mob bosses and criminals who supported those slavers wanted revenge in turn and Anakin's powerful force abilities attracted "Dark Powers" who trained him in even more exceptionally deadly dark arts! Soon Anakin took charge of these many criminal organizations and allied himself with the Trade Federation, being tricked by the "Dark Lord" into thinking that everything that happened to him was a result of the failure of the Jedi and the Republic to protect his backwater planet! A great war broke out! Anakin was a merciless warlord! He met this hot chick who wasn't that interested in him, but he thought if he became powerful enough, she'd love him! It didn't work! Soon Anakin was killing for the sake of killing! His love betrayed him and lured him into a fight with Old-Guy Man! Old-Guy Man nearly killed Anakin, but the Dark Powers saved his crispy bacon! With the Dark Powers plot revealed, the new Darth Vader laid waste to the Jedi and became right-hand-man of the new Emperor!

See, much better. No more twerpy emofest. No more angst-ridden writer insert. Still keeps the important parts, but wraps them up into a much more believable, much more reasonable story than "Angry emo kid goes crazy 'cause not-girlfriend doesn't go for him."

Or, to pick an example that is less auto-disliked, it's would be akin to Romeo and Juliet if they were both terminally ill and going to die anyway. It still might be sad and a bummer, but it's no longer a tragedy. There's never a point in the story where things could change and become a comedy, no turning point where the protagonist shifts from hero to villain.

Lets try again!

Romeo, the poor kid from the wrong side of town falls for Juliet, the rich girl with all the right curves! But alas! It is not meant to be! So Romeo dedicates himself to becoming rich and powerful so that her family might respect him. Alas all he knows is crime, but he sure does know his crime, so Romeo becomes a powerful crime boss! He spends years of his life moving up the ranks and soon he is rich and powerful, even moreso than Juliet's family, but alas they are old money and see him as new money, unworthy of their bloodline. Angered by this, Romeo seeks aid from the Dark Powers to twist the fates and make it appear that he is indeed Old Money. But alas it is not enough, for Juliet does not love him! Instead she has fallen for his humble brother, who owns nothing more than a farm. Romeo has everything! Money! Power! But now the one thing he wants is beyond his reach forever! In a fit of rage he destroy's Juliet's family, his own family, even his brother and Juliet! Saddened by his loss he strikes a new deal with the Dark Powers so that Juliet may live forever and one day love him!

See, the love is a good sort of background motivator for the character. It drives him. It moves him. It underlies his very existence! But at the same time, his descent into madness is slow and painful and the more powerful and more depraved he becomes, the more his Love is pushed away from him. He is obsessed, but singleminded. The loss of his love is the straw that broke the camel's back, not the sudden turning point in his life where he went from flowers and puppies to violence and depravity.

That's what I dislike. There's no tragedy in Strahd anymore, which sucks ALL the drama out of events because there was never a choice, never a moment where he could have decided to take a different path. There's no emotion because the fall is a foregone conclusion. Which is one of the big themes of Gothic literature and horror: people making the wrong decision and the loss that follows. Gothic literature very much IS emo. Strahd was very much playing to a trope of the genre. And moving away from that diminishes Strahd from a tragic villain who fell for love to just another generic capital-E Evil monster to be killed. He's generic. Just another vampire.
Gothic literature is also very much about inescapable fate. We, the reader know what is going to happen, but we keep reading because Strahd doesn't and if he does (say, via a card reading) he ignores it! His chances to change his ways show up over and over and over again and each time he dismisses them because magic or because he is so close or because he has great power. We want to see Strahd succeed as much as we want to see Strahd fail.

Personally, I don't see the original telling of Strahd as being a very good representation of gothic writing or even a very good representation of writing at all. It's VERY Anakin. Couple rough points in his life and suddenly has a vision of doom and decides to save the Evil Emperor for no good raisin and then every bad thing he saw coming happens because it's all his fault. Okay, that last part I actually like.

But I don't really much care for characters who "suddenly snap". It's fine for psychos, guys who go around murdering teenagers once a year with chainsaws. It's not really that good for villains.

EX: I just watched Jessica Jones, their portrayal of Kilgrave varied greatly from the original (where he was kinda lame, powerful, but not a real great character) and they made him into someone who was absolutely depraved, but all of his depravity stemmed from two things: he could get anything he wanted...except the one thing he really wanted. And he just completely lacked any sort of moral compass on how to get it so he just went with what he knew. That's Strahd right there. The guy who has everything and wants the one thing he can't have, but will do anything to get it, and the harder he tries to get it, the more it slips through his fingers.

The thing is, regardless of which you like better (or how much you hated the prequels) one is already canon. It's possible to retcon and rewrite unpopular canon or "fix" things, but that's tricky and shouldn't be done lightly.
As a rule, writers should respect the IP they're hired to update and not make changes without reason. Writers are the stewards of the IP, and they change to accommodate canon, not the other way round.
This is a reoccurring problem with WotC and the current team. Like how the entire modus operandi of the Cult of the Dragon changed and contorted to fit the Tyranny of Dragons storyline.
*shrug* as a long-time comic book reader you have one of two choices when dealing with retcons:
A: Deal and keep reading, knowing it will likely change again, and again, and again in the future.
B: Stop reading.

I choose A.
 

For me, the conqueror angle helps set up his tragic flaw. He didn't get furious over Tatyana because of true lost love - he never even really loved her. He doesn't know what "love" really is. He just wanted her. He's possessive, desperately so, and conqueror-Strahd sets that up nicely. Tatyana isn't the cause of her fall (none of that victim-blaming!), she's just the precipitating event, the thing he wants the most that he is never allowed to have, the last thing in his life that refused to love him, and not because of some flaw in her, but because of some flaw in him that he refused to acknowledge or deal with.

He didn't plunge his entire realm into the depths of darkness because he was emotionally hurt, he did it because he thinks he owns them. That works well with the tone of the adventure - nothing escapes. Strahd clings to everything, a miser to the last. That drives home the possessiveness and the arrogance.

That's not incompatible with him defending the land at some point and falling at his failure to win over Tatyana, it just means that he didn't swing from "nice guy" to "vampire overlord" overnight. He always had that "vampire overlord" in him. He never confronted it, never redeemed himself, always blamed other people, and then The Dark Powers just drew it out.

That said, I like the timeline where he sees and covets Tatyana and THEN makes the pact - her as the precipitating factor in his fall is a pretty key element of the story, and removing her from that moment gives his obsession less impact. If her presence was a bigger event in his life, his obsession makes sense (he died for her, even if she didn't want him to, never asked him to, and is repulsed by the idea of it).
And that all works. I also don't believe Strahd loved her so much as lusted, and wanted to possess her almost as a trophy. Strahd was never a noble man. He was a warrior and a soldier who did what was needed.

But love or lust, conqueror or freedom fighter, heroic warrior or pragmatic solider, that's all a matter of perspective. What really matters is the choice he makes.
But after being rejected, he sat alone, prayed, and had to make a choice: accept defeat for the first time in his life and grow as a person, or kill his brother and claim victory over Tatyana. That's the decision point that's necessary for tragedy. That's the Act III climax where things change direction.

But if he was already eeeevil and made the deal before meeting Tatyana that doesn't work.
 

Remove ads

Top