Cynicism of an AD&D refugee

[fanboy2000]

Not everyone WANTS powers. I don't. I never played a Wizard in 3e because I am turned off by selecting cards to play from my deck like that. I'd rather have a small core of abilities that gets better, and a few new abilities added at significant levels, than some unwieldy pillar of spells.

I don't think 4e powers represent an unwieldily pillar of spells.

In 3.5 a fighter got 11 class features over 20 levels. At first level they got to choose their class feature from a list of bonus feats, the number of which a 1st level fighter qualified for was 33. This includes feats like cleave which could be qualified for by taking power-atack as a the first level general feat.

By contrast, a 4e fighter gets 17 powers over 30 levels. At first level They chose 2 at-will powers from a list of 4, 1 encounter power from a list 4, and 1 daily from a list of 3.

In 3.5 a wizard has 46 class features over 20 levels. A wizard will, at 20th, be able to cast 40 spells, have 4 bonus feats, be able to scribe scrolls, and can summon a familiar. At first level though, the wizard only has 6 class features. Three 0 level spells, one 1st level spell, scribe scroll, and summon familiar. The three 0 level spells are chosen from a list of 19, and the one 1st level is chosen from a list of 39.

By contrast, a 4e wizards gets 17 powers over 30 levels. Wizards also get 4 non-combat powers, At first level the wizards chose 2 at-wills from a list of 5, 1 encounter from a list of 5, and 1 daily from a list of 4.

Given the way powers are selected in 4e, I would say that this is hardly unwieldy. Also, at-will powers, which stay with a PC from 1st to 30th unless the PC retrains, do get better.

That's not to say that the fighter probably didn't need some lovin' in that respect, and that the wizard could have used a tone-down. Making Rituals universal noncombat "spells" is a very good idea. Giving Fighters "swordball" instead of fireball and "mundane missile" instead of "magic missile" and "crossbow bolt" instead of "lightning bolt" isn't, in my mind, the way to go. It just means that chapter of the 3e PHB that was so intimidating gets quadrupled as we add "new spells" for the other classes, and that diversity gets pushed to the side.

Many of the fighter’s powers are modeled after fighter bonus feats, not wizard/sorcoror spells. The at-will fighter power, cleave, springs to mind.

Recently, I walked three newcomers to 4e (one was a newcomer to rpgs in general) through character creation. One of them was a fighter. He chose his powers and it didn't take very long, the list is short and the powers are well defined. Personally, I don't think that powers are as bad as spells. What think that they replace is the prestige class mechanic. In my experience, few people ever played fighters to 20th level, they typically multiclassed with some of the classes in the 3.5 PHB and then went on to a PrC in some splatbook. So it seems to me that what 4e did, practically, was give people as many choices as they had in 3.5, but unify the mechanism by which people exercised that choice under one mechanic.

That's not really an acceptable sacrifice for a sub-par system, in my mind.

 

[Thasmodious]

Yes, but does 4e even *have* a spell or ability that can do this? I haven't heard of one yet.

Yes. Phantom Chasm, level 1 wizard daily. The target believes a chasm just opened up beneath them and they are plummeting to their death. They take 2d6+int psychic damage and are prone and immobilized until end of next turn.

Powers aren't just damage, but damage represents the toll such attacks take on your mind, your ability to fight, your stamina, etc.

As opposed to loss of mobility, loss of powers, loss of senses, etc. I think those are all still in 4e (though nowhere near as prevalent or powerful as any earlier edition)

They are more prevalent. I'm thinking you haven't actually read much of 4e? I don't mean that sarcastically or anything, but you said you've avoided the wizards website since 4e came out and a statement like that and the above tells me you don't exactly grasp how many powers work. Most of the powers in 4e do damage + an effect. They may immobilize, slow, stun, daze, weaken, knock prone, knock unconscious, blind, deafen, etc., etc. Their power is a bit more balanced than in 3e, with the removal of save or die effects and instant combat enders like petrification, which still exists, but powers that can cause petrification require you to fail at least two saves.

and would be the bread and butter of illusionists. You think the cliff just fell on you. You think you're in quicksand. You think you can't see anything but fog because...well, suddenly it's foggy. Or dark. And you keep hearing those strange voices from just off to your left yet you'd *swear* nobody's there. And where the frak did that Dwarf come from?!

Phantasmal Terrain, Phantasmal Assailant, Enemies Abound, Illusory Wall, Ghost Sound, all got you covered. And in a few months, with PHB 2, the actual Illusionist class will be out with dozens of Illusion powers; which, incidentally, will most all do damage as well.

 

[Thasmodious]

Not everyone WANTS powers. I don't. I never played a Wizard in 3e because I am turned off by selecting cards to play from my deck like that. I'd rather have a small core of abilities that gets better, and a few new abilities added at significant levels, than some unwieldy pillar of spells.

Congratulations, you've just described the 4e power system. A small core of abilities that get better, with a few new ones spread out over level ups...

 

[ExploderWizard]

And in a few months, with PHB 2, the actual Illusionist class will be out with dozens of Illusion powers; which, incidentally, will most all do damage as well.

Which I think will be a huge letdown. The illusionist will feel the same as the wizard-causing damage that may or may not include a status effect as a minor annoyance for a round or so. The current list of powers gives me little hope but we shall see.

 

[Fifth Element]

How would you feel if there was only a single word per page and the book price accounted for it.

How would you feel if we had a discussion about 4E without having ridiculously literal interpretations of every statement made by someone you don't agree with?

 

[Raven Crowking]

deleted

 

[Kishin]

He sure can't do more damage than a Ranger or Rogue now

Several two handed builds, particularly ones involving the maul, disagree with you.

Not everyone WANTS powers. I don't. I never played a Wizard in 3e because I am turned off by selecting cards to play from my deck like that. I'd rather have a small core of abilities that gets better, and a few new abilities added at significant levels, than some unwieldy pillar of spells.

How is this not exactly what 4E is? At 30th level, your full complement of usable abilities is 17: 2 At-Will, 4 Encounter, 4 daily, 7 Utility. The At wills form the small core that gets better, along with any class feature powers.

17 is about x4 less powers/spells my 14th level Transmuter had at his disposal in 3.5E.

The whole process of using an ability in combat is selecting a card from the deck. Aren't you doing game design based on a series of electronic RPGs that exemplifies this process, even over the last decade when it became what would essentially be in PnP RPG terms a point buy system?

How would you feel if we had a discussion about 4E without having ridiculously literal interpretations of every statement made by someone you don't agree with?

Like I woke up in a reality where the internet didn't exist.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The current list of powers gives me little hope but we shall see.

Hey, we're talking about the illusionist - we can't even trust what we see!

 

[garyh]

Hey, we're talking about the illusionist - we can't even trust what we see!

I disbelieve this post.

 

[Starbuck_II]

In 3.5 a fighter got 11 class features over 20 levels.

By contrast, a 4e fighter gets 17 powers over 30 levels. At first level They chose 2 at-will powers from a list of 4, 1 encounter power from a list 4, and 1 daily from a list of 3.

In 3.5 a wizard has 46 class features over 20 levels.

By contrast, a 4e wizards gets 17 powers over 30 levels. Wizards also get 4 non-combat powers, At first level the wizards chose 2 at-wills from a list of 5, 1 encounter from a list of 5, and 1 daily from a list of 4.

You didn't count the class features of the classes (not iuncluding Prc/Destiny class features).
4e:
Fighter: Gets 3 Class features: Combat Superiority, Combat Challenge, and Weapon talent.

Wizard: Implement, Implement mastery, Ritual casting, and spellbook (you can change dailys).