Cynicism of an AD&D refugee

New "core" books each year is upkeep and maintenance that the customer doesn't have to need.

Just claiming PHBII as core just means that the first 3 books are not a complete game.
I think you have a misunderstanding of what "core" means for 4e, as opposed to earlier editions. I say that because this is a pretty ... well, insane philosophy.

For 1e, 2e, and to a lesser extent 3e, a new core book likely meant you may need it down the road as a reference material for other products.

For 4e, there's no such assumption. Because NPCs and monsters are built on separate systems, their entire combat capability is summed up in a stat block. If there's a Swordmage in an adventure, I won't need to have the FRPG to figure out what that Swordmage can do in combat.

It's a marketing gimmick. It's also a philosophy - as in, "We'll concentrate on making universal books that can be used in any setting."

4e's PHB2 will be no more needed for 4e than 3e's PHB2 was for 3e.

-O
 

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But these demands, to a much larger extent, were met in a previous edition.

Obviously, it's completely possible to satisfy most or at least MORE of these demands than 4e chose to.

Really, the core of this is the pagecount consumed by the powers system, because that's probably reason #1 that there weren't more races or classes, and is yet another glaring flaw in the powers system for me.

4e doesn't consider diversity in that respect to be very valuable. Some players disagree. It's not unreasonable to expect a continuation of what you've had before.
Yeah, think about how many more classes and races 3E could have offered if there hadn't been all these stupid spells in it!
 



Some gamers have unreasonable value expectations for products. A publisher has to accept that.
If something previous offered what some consumers want, then it is not "unreasonable expectations". Obviously.

It's perfectly fine for someone to feel that the 4e core doesn't offer them what they want. It's perfectly unreasonable for them to feel that 4e doesn't offer a complete game
Please be consistent.

If a game doesn't offer them what they want, then it is - by definition - not a complete game to them. (Or is this just one of those creepy ENWorld "it must be objective!" moments...? Weird.)
 


If a game doesn't offer them what they want, then it is - by definition - not a complete game to them. (Or is this just one of those creepy ENWorld "it must be objective!" moments...? Weird.)
But this is something that SHOULD be objective. A game is complete or incomplete without reference to whether I like it or whether I feel it has everything I want.

I'm always a bit bothered by this retreat into "I feel 4e is X, so its X for me!" By turning a public reason into a private reason, you are embracing the total irrelevance of your opinions. If you can't be bothered to bring public reasons to a public discourse, stay home. Vote with your wallet, fine, but don't bother wasting everyone's time with arguments that you yourself believe have zero relevance or power to convince for anyone other than yourself.

Political scientists have spilled all kinds of ink on this subject. Start with Rawls and work your way up.
 

Now, there's no question that fencers, fighter-mages, lightly armored fighters and the like benefitted a lot from the 3.5 splatbooks. But even with just core, they're viable. Perhaps not ideal, but in their own niche, as good as anything else. Not so with 4e.

Have to rewind back to the original post, because I need to point out that this statement is utterly, hilariously wrong.

Using just core (which is the premise of your entire post, may I remind you), effectiveness of fighter mages in 3.5e ranged from mediocrity to outright putrescence. You were boxed into taking a single prestige class that had little or no flavor and that saddled you with numerous issues:

(1) You still suffered from spell failure. Your only really choice for armor was the mithral chain shirt- even leather armor was less viable than the ubiquitous MCS. And shields were wholly useless.

(2) You suddenly became a victim of MAD.

(3) You were never as effective as a single class wizard (never mind a wizard with full spellcasting prestige classes in his portfolio). They'd even show you up in the melee department once shapechange became available.

On the other hand, you would be far more effective than a single class fighter- which is like saying that winning one dollar with a lottery ticket is better than getting poked in the eye with a cattle prod.

Fighter mages in 4e are far, far more effective, and really easy to design:

(1) Start with Fighter.
(2) Add multiclass: Wizard
(3) Add Ritual Casting
(4) Add other multiclass feats to taste
(5) Use wizard of the spiral tower prestige class.

You wind up with a character who has a fairly wide range of magical abilities and still performs his duties as fighter with skill and vigor.

You have a reasonable argument (though I disagree with it), but the example you chose doesn't do anything but argue against your main point.
 

Please be consistent.
I am reminded of a quote about hobgoblins... ;)

If a game doesn't offer them what they want, then it is - by definition - not a complete game to them. (Or is this just one of those creepy ENWorld "it must be objective!" moments...? Weird.)
It's one of those "hey, let's try to be a little more objective moments". Whether you feel that's creepy is entirely up to you.

I like to make distinction a between "complete" and "has precisely what I want". Without such a distinction, "complete" loses a lot of its utility as a word for describing things in the exterior world.
 

please be consistent.

If a game doesn't offer them what they want, then it is - by definition - not a complete game to them. (or is this just one of those creepy enworld "it must be objective!" moments...? Weird.)
:-S

You're redefining "complete" in a way that's not consistent with the way it's being used in this thread. By making it relative, you're cutting off all meaningful discussion.

-O
 

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