Cynicism of an AD&D refugee

But this is something that SHOULD be objective. A game is complete or incomplete without reference to whether I like it or whether I feel it has everything I want.

Well, then let's be objective. The 4e core game offers fewer character types than core games of previous editions (no druids, bards, or barbarians, very limited enchantments, polymorphs, illusions). The 4e core game offers fewer mundane-style creatures suitable for lower-level challenges and for building a living world in the Monster Manual than previous editions.

4e is a less complete D&D, comparing core to core, than previous editions of D&D. Since I want to play D&D rather than some subset of D&D, 4e is therefore an incomplete game.
 

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So where does that leave us? Let's say you played and enjoyed an Eldritch Knight in D&D 3.5. Well, in 4e, you can choose to

A) suck worse than a poorly planned 3.0 fighter/wizard, by taking less than exciting multiclass choices
B) lose your character's basic flavor, by taking somewhat more effective multiclass choices
C) play something else
D) pay money

I'm not sure where you got this idea. The 4E multiclass fighter/wizard is just as flavorful and effective as the 3.5 Eldritch Knight. Being able to throw around spells and swing your sword with equal skill - actually equal skill - is far more built into the core system than it was in 3.5.

Honestly, I find 4E - with the feat and skill system allowing for more direct customization of characters - to be much easier to build diverse concepts in, especially ones that 3.5 would have kicked out the back door as ineffective.

Now, as more books come out, there becomes more ways to build your wizard/fighter types, just like in 3.5. But you don't need to purchase them by any means, and I'm not sure why you think that is the case.
 

Since I want to play D&D rather than some subset of D&D, 4e is therefore an incomplete game.
Aha... that's the difference. I don't want to "play D&D". I want to play my own personalized game of high-adventure fantasy. D&D is merely the tool I use to create my game (therefore, I think more in terms of fantasy and adventure archetypes and less in terms of strict fidelity to traditional D&D components).
 

But this is something that SHOULD be objective.
Good luck with that.

If it's objective, it's something that is easily measurable and agreed upon. You're already on thin ice when it comes to a game. For chrissake's, people have a hard enough time discussing and agreeing on what's "objectively" good/bad about movies, which a lot more people have spent a lot more time discussing. Turns out, it goes all the way down to "it's objectively a bad movie if the mic boom can be seen on film". Beyond that... turns out nobody can agree. Huh.

Applying it to D&D? A laughable endeavor.

I'm always a bit bothered by this retreat into "I feel 4e is X, so its X for me!"
Yeah, some of ENWorld's "usual suspects" seem to have a problem with that (but only towards 4e, it seems). Whatever.

My comments weren't even edition specific. How 'bout that? The flailing by said "usual suspects" continues.

By turning a public reason into a private reason, you are embracing the total irrelevance of your opinions. If you can't be bothered to bring public reasons to a public discourse, stay home. Vote with your wallet, fine, but don't bother wasting everyone's time with arguments that you yourself believe have zero relevance or power to convince for anyone other than yourself.
On an internet messageboard? Wasting time? Really? Again... good luck with that. (It's solved, though, by putting people who you think are irrelevant on ignore lists.) I am impressed with your (overly) optimistic view of public discourse, however.

The Little Raven said:
By this definition, no game ever made is a complete game, because no game offers everyone everything that they want.
Arnwyn said:
(Or is this just one of those creepy ENWorld "it must be objective!" moments...? Weird.)
 

Your assumption is that you somehow need the PHB II and so on. But you just don't. The game works at is. Naming them PHB II is a marketing ploay, implying:
"We treat this as Core, so you can expect further support for it, even in other settings." (this is actually the only thing that really matters - it means it's not like the 3E new base classes that you often had only one book and would never see again - and this was criticized, so there is obviously a portion of the market that finds this better then the idea of purely contained supplements!)
"We worked on this with the same effort as for the first one."
"This is stuff you really want to have - it's core!"

But the truth is it's still just a supplement you can buy or ignore.

The failed premise is that a complete game is what you are told it is, rather than what you want out of it. If they remove Boardwalk and Park Place form monopoly and add in another Chance and Community Space, then it will not make everyone happy that they tried to replace their old game to still be able to play with something inferior that was not what they wanted.

Likewise always changing what races and classes are core is silly. They could have added the new class, and 2 new races, and made elves bi-polar without taking other stuff out, and given people what they most wanted, and what was in the past book as core.

D&D needs a firm core, and not all this wishy-washy crap.

Make up your damn mind if monk's exist or not!

Then you make people wait a entire year for the class they were wanting all along, while other people are already playing and this player gets disgruntled playing something they didn't want or having to convert or kill off a character when most other players could "convert" to 4th edition with the "standard" classes in the first PHB.

I just don't believe the splat books are core philosophy.

If they are optional, then call them so, and stop trying to lie to consumers for whatever reason. I think they even said they left out classes to encourage people to buy the new books to get into the habit of a new PHB or DMG coming out each year.

That is just plain wrong on design, marketing, and ethics.

If you want consumers to buy new books, then make something of quality that they will want to buy, not by holding out things you:
a) didn't have time to finish because you rushed the product out
b) wanted to save for later to get someone to buy a new book
c) didn't want implications of rape in core material

But now...here is the funny part...Humans rape orcs and that is where half-orcs come from for the Realms. Not monsters raping humans, but those brutal humans invading orc villages and having their way with the orc women. :eek:

I guess all half-elf parent unions were just the most happy thing ever right Tanis?

They need to find a core, like other games did decades ago, and build onto that. Then D&D would be a much more stable game. Transition between editions would be much smoother for players. Maybe even make some more money for the company at the same time with a more confident player base about the product.

Now its like looking for the blue lines after peeing on the stick to see if its good news or bad coming your way....

Be consistent. It is ok to have the same sort of material in the core, and have only one set of core, that make people comfortable about changing with things they know and are comfortable with, without resorting to tactics to get people to buy extra books to get what they had in the past like 2nd, 3rd, 4th all have done.

You want the splat books to sell? Make it of the quality that people cannot resist!
 

Aha... that's the difference. I don't want to "play D&D". I want to play my own personalized game of high-adventure fantasy. D&D is merely the tool I use to create my game (therefore, I think more in terms of fantasy and adventure archetypes and less in terms of strict fidelity to traditional D&D components).

Then perhaps you shouldn't try to tell D&D players that 4e is a complete game for playing D&D rather than a complete "some-other-FRPG" suitable for your particular brand of adventuring.
 

So, here's what I mean by not complete.

With 3e, when it came out, there were certainly things from 2e not included in the core three 3e books, but there was very to which the designers actively responded "we will be putting this in a later book". If I had to go off the top of my head, I'd really just say psionics and a few prestige classes were like that, not things that were core material in 2e.

With 4e, before it came out, we'd been told explicitly that a lot of things core to D&D were being held back - bards and druids until PHB2, frost giants until MM2 - and there are times where the books itself mention that a monster entry is intentionally incomplete, as with archons. (And if anyone doesn't expect archons in every upcoming Monster Manual...)

For a non-D&D comparison, M&M is complete in one book. Even though I greatly enjoy the Mastermind's Manual and Ultimate Power, neither of them is essential to play the game or even contains things I consider "core" to the M&M experience, they just make it better. In fact, until I read Ultimate Power I didn't think there was anything in Ultimate Power I was missing.

Exalted is very incomplete, with five main character types, and the need for a second book to get more than "BS it" for all but one of them, and the need for four more books to get the actual rules to play the other four as PCs. Oh, and books constantly referring to future publications in the line. (Which often gets funny when things have been changed rules-wise between the first book in which something is mentioned and the actual writeup.)
 

You're redefining "complete" in a way that's not consistent with the way it's being used in this thread. By making it relative, you're cutting off all meaningful discussion.
You yourself point out in your Post #35 that there are multiple definitions of "completeness" (good ones, I might add).

So far it doesn't look like it's being used just one way in this thread. My response was specifically to Mallus' post. Go from there. (Maybe he just made his point so poorly that my post was rendered moot because I couldn't figure out what he was trying to say? Quite possible.)
 

Then perhaps you shouldn't try to tell D&D players that 4e is a complete game for playing D&D rather than a complete "some-other-FRPG" suitable for your particular brand of adventuring.
I'm offering my opinion that 4e meets the definition of a (reasonable) complete tool set for creating high-adventure fantasy campaigns, which, as it so happens, bear more than a passing resemblance to those created by prior editions of D&D (and I am a D&D player, as much as any other, and more so, in terms of quality --I kid... somewhat:)).

I guess it comes down to what you think D&D is. I see it as a set of tools for creating simulations of fantasy stories/films. Seen it that light, the game is complete if it supports a reasonable number of tropes and archetypes. Since 4e seems to support the slaying dragons, the rescuing of princesses, the playing of knights, wizards and dashing swashbucklers, it meets my definition of reasonably complete.

It's certainly doesn't support all of the now-canonical D&D minutiae (some of which is on the way). If that's what you're after, then I concede that it isn't.
 

It's certainly doesn't support all of the now-canonical D&D minutiae (some of which is on the way). If that's what you're after, then I concede that it isn't.

And that's why, in part, there can be no completely objective definition of whether or not 4e qualifies as a complete game in the AD&D strain. I have played a number of druid characters and have been able to do so with just the core, no splat books necessary, since 1st edition. I've had the character class, spells, and suitable servant and companion animals in my monster manuals.

Then 4th edition came along and now? Not so much. 4e is incomplete if it is trying to be the successor to the game that has included such characters for over 25 years as part of its core.
 

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