D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3.5: Harvesting Dragonhide

[Dandu]

Given that a hundred spell component pouches cost only 500 gp...

 

[Jimlock]

Very much so.

Yes, still overpowered at high levels as Dandu points out. I'm just also pointing out that the wizard class, per RAW, has an inherent weakness (though few DMs seem to exploit this).

In my games:

-The component pouch/spellbook being vulnerable to theft/distraction.
[RAW]
-Controlled material components. Special materials are rare/hard to find.
[In the purview of the DM. NOT against RAW]
-Limited/controlled availability of spells (consequently limited spell known).
[In the purview of the DM. NOT against RAW]
-Required spell research for learning spells.
DMG p198: Arcane spellcasters don't have things quite so easy, Wizards must learn new spells and add the to their spellbooks. If you require wizards to actually spend game time on spell research to gain those new spells, assume that it takes one day per spell and that such research costs twice what it would normally cost.
[Optional per RAW]
-Limited resources (affects money potentially spent on materials for the new spells added, scrolls).
[In the purview of the DM. NOT against RAW]

All i'm trying to say is that there are ways to balance Wizards out without having to go into house-ruling.
Material component availability/vulnerability... is one of those ways.

 

[Dandu]

1. Eschew Materials. Or, you know, a hundred spell component pouches. Also, Secret Page created backup/decoy spell books. Also, really good security measures. I don't want to give anything away, but Shrink Item combined with a generous quantity of lubricant makes something very hard to steal.
2. Just don't use those.
3. 2 spells/level is good enough for a great degree of brokenness. Just look at the sorcerer...

 

[Jimlock]

Eschew Materials.

Eschew Materials is far from being bulletproof. Material component cost in spells, is mostly given in case of minerals, gems and the like. This happens because those material have a pretty set/universal value, used as they are for transactions. That is not to say that when a material has no cost written next to it, has necessarily a cost of 1gp or less. Mercury, amber/crystal rods, a handful of crystal marbles, a miniature brass hearing trumpet to name a few... are materials without a cost next to them. The rarity, the craftsmanship, can easily increase the prices of those rare components beyond 1gp.

Ok.. a pinch of cat's fur... or a dead spider...or a pinch of sand... are easy to find. But lots and lots of components can easily cost plenty of money without being valuable themselves.
An eyelash from an ogre/rakshasa mage for example, is a worthless item by itself, but given the fact that its rare, and that its used for a powerful spell, can put it's price quite high. A merchant who is the know, is not gonna give such items for free.

Value is arbitrary. Gold is precious because its rare, In a world full of gold, gold is worthless.
In an average D&D world gold is rare, therefore valuable. Same thing happens with rare ingredients, even though they are not used in the every day life of a medieval world.

It's up to the DM to decide the value of such materials, without going against any rule.
A DM who wants to get the job done, can always find the way, even by RAW.

a hundred spell component pouches.

a hundred spell component pouches are useless without the components in them.

SRD:A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost*, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

*See above.

Also, Secret Page created backup/decoy spell books. Also, really good security measures. I don't want to give anything away, but Shrink Item combined with a generous quantity of lubricant makes something very hard to steal.

Ok... as there are ways to counter those...

Just don't use those.

That doesn't mean its not RAW.

Limited resources, expensive and lengthy magical research, can easily hamper wizards.

Regardless of spell gained per level (which is optional, but still RAW), the rules obliges you to do so for spells gained another way.

2 spells/level is good enough for a great degree of brokenness.

Not really. The wizard is not as versatile. He's gonna be good at some things, but pretty weak in many others. There are many holes he can't keep closed.

Don't forget that by the rules, it is up to the DM to decide which spells are available for research. And i'm not referring to phrases like "The DM can change any rule" found in the first pages of DMG, I'm referring specifically to spell research.

Just look at the sorcerer...

Sorcerers can have it even worse than the wizards. DMG gives the DM the option to turn a sorcerer's gaining of a single spell into an entire quest, by obliging him to learn spells from other powerful entities, who ask for something in return.



.......Rules Lawyering can work both ways...

 

[Dandu]

Are you now saying that the automatic spells learned from leveling up are not gotten, you know, automatically?

And as for how many spells you need to know to be broken, if you doubt that a small number of spells known per level is necessary, a practical demonstration can be arranged.

Perhaps you would care to DM it? I think that would be a wonderful use of your time!

By the way, what you said about material components having arbitrary value? If you're going to talk about RAW, you don't get to mess around with the cost of things like bat guano. If it doesn't have a listed price in the spell component description, it can be substituted by with Eschew Materials, or be found in spell component pouches.

Hell, I'll even quote it to you.

Material (M)

A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Eschew Materials [General]
Benefit

You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.

You will no doubt say that it is the DM's prerogative to change the cost of the spell components, which is true, but then that wouldn't be "as written" would it?

 

[Jimlock]

Are you now saying that the automatic spells learned from leveling up are not gotten, you know, automatically?

I'm not saying it. DMG says it.

DMG p198:

LEARNING NEW SPELLS
Divine spellcasters just get new spells when they gain the ability to cast them. Their Deities, or the powers they revere, take care of it all for them. You will not find a ranger in a library trying to learn a new spell.
Arcane spellcasters don't have things quite so easy, Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks. If you require wizards to actually spend game time on spell research to gain those new spells, assume that it takes one day per spell and that such research costs twice what it would normally cost.

And as for how many spells you need to know to be broken, if you doubt that a small number of spells known per level is necessary, a practical demonstration can be arranged.

Perhaps you would care to DM it? I think that would be a wonderful use of your time!

No need, i've experienced it with my own eyes.
Don't forget what i said in my previous post.
Such a thing cannot be proved by a couple of encounters only.

By the way, what you said about material components having arbitrary value? If you're going to talk about RAW, you don't get to mess around with the cost of things like bat guano. If it doesn't have a listed price in the spell component description, it can be substituted by with Eschew Materials, or be found in spell component pouches.
You will no doubt say that it is the DM's prerogative to change the cost of the spell components, which is true, but then that wouldn't be "as written" would it?

RAW allows the DM to set the value of everything that isn't listed.... Be that, a prostitute, a statue, a jar of honey or whatever have you.

So a single line on the materials section of PHB (Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible) does not get to override and flatten out the very system a DM sets for his world. There are so many diverse and expensive materials in all the spells put together, that it would be impossible to set a monitory system in any game world by assuming that all these materials have a cost of 1gp or less.

If I create a world letter to letter by RAW, and decide that in this world there are only three cats (RAW permits me), i get to set the value of a cat's fur as I please (as RAW permits me). In this case, a pinch of a cat's fur, is not gonna cost anywhere near 1gp.


Or perhaps you think that this PHB line actually forces me to having more than three cats in my world?

In this case my RAW world overrides this PHB line, which is only natural. Such is the case for all materials.


...By RAW, the DM decides:

-which spells a wizard finds.
-how many spells the wizards finds
-how much money a wizard gets for his researches.

Hell... RAW can make a wizard chase after a single spell for all his life.

 

[Dandu]

I'm not saying it. DMG says it.

DMG p198:

LEARNING NEW SPELLS
Divine spellcasters just get new spells when they gain the ability to cast them. Their Deities, or the powers they revere, take care of it all for them. You will not find a ranger in a library trying to learn a new spell.
Arcane spellcasters don't have things quite so easy, Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks. If you require wizards to actually spend game time on spell research to gain those new spells, assume that it takes one day per spell and that such research costs twice what it would normally cost.

That's... not quite what it says in mine.

You seem to have made a few important omissions, in fact. Among them, that although learning spells takes time, it is not a random process. Now, I may have not been entirely right in using the term "automatic" as it carries the implication of something happening the instant the wizard levels up. I considered it "automatic" in that, it automatically follows a wizard's leveling up, even if the actual time between is more than a few seconds. In the same way as speeding in front of a police car will automatically lead to a ticket, even if the officer may have to chase you down for a good half hour.

And as for the sorcerer learning spells, if a variant rule on how to handle it is RAW, then so is the Arcane Swordsage.

No need, i've experienced it with my own eyes.
Don't forget what i said in my previous post.
Such a thing cannot be proved by a couple of encounters only.

By all means, throw out a good three dozen encounters. I'd be interested in seeing how a build like this does in your kind of setting. Of course, we'll need three other people to play the other roles...

As for everything that comes after, would you kindly provide a quote for it? I'd just like to see for myself, because some of the things you've been saying like "In this case my RAW world overrides this PHB line, which is only natural. Such is the case for all materials." sound rather dodgy, as you do not get to make RAW. RAW is Rules, As Written. Unless you wrote the rules, you do not get a say in Rules, As Written. You get a say in the Rules At Your Table, and Rules As You Interpret Them To Be, which I think is what you are conflating with Rules, As Written.

 

[nijineko]

all references i note dealing with dragonhide being made into armor (dmg, draconomicon) use armor-crafting as the skill referenced. I would adjudicate that either survival or craft armor would work for the purpose.

 

[Jimlock]

That's... not quite what it says in mine.

You seem to have made a few important omissions, in fact. Among them, that although learning spells takes time, it is not a random process.

Hold on a second...

.= Things i did not include because i was bored. (My DMG is a non-text PDF, I had to type it.)

LEARNING NEW SPELLS
Divine spellcasters just get new spells when they gain the ability to cast them. Their Deities, or the powers they revere, take care of it all for them. You will not find a ranger in a library trying to learn a new spell.
Arcane spellcasters don't have things quite so easy, Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks. This process is detailed in the Player's Handbook (see: Arcane Magical Writings, page 178). If you require wizards to actually spend game time on spell research to gain those new spells (but no roll is needed for spells that come with level advancement) assume that it takes one day per spell and that such research costs twice what it would normally cost to have an NPC cast the spell for the character (see: NPC Spellcasting, page 107).

How does leaving those couple of phrases out change anything?
How does it change my argument, or the facts, when i said:

...By RAW, the DM decides:

-which spells a wizard finds.
-how many spells the wizards finds
-how much money a wizard gets for his researches.

Hell... RAW can make a wizard chase after a single spell for all his life.

I can't believe that missing out the reference to PHB, the fact that a spellcraft check is not required, and the fact that the research costs double the money only when an NPC gets to teach the wizard...changes anything in respect to my arguments.

And the reason i'm getting so fastidious about it, is because you begun your post by creating the illusion that the missing text counters the rest, or my argument, which is clearly not the case.

And as for the sorcerer learning spells, if a variant rule on how to handle it is RAW, then so is the Arcane Swordsage.

As long as its RAW, its fine by me.

As for everything that comes after, would you kindly provide a quote for it? I'd just like to see for myself, because some of the things you've been saying like "In this case my RAW world overrides this PHB line, which is only natural. Such is the case for all materials." sound rather dodgy, as you do not get to make RAW. RAW is Rules, As Written. Unless you wrote the rules, you do not get a say in Rules, As Written. You get a say in the Rules At Your Table, and Rules As You Interpret Them To Be, which I think is what you are conflating with Rules, As Written.

Indeed, i do not get to make RAW. What RAW does, is that it gives the DM all the freedom he needs to adjust/set prices according to availability, supply and demand, for his setting.
So if a DM wants to adjust/set prices on materials he is free to do so, by RAW.


As for the references you asked for:
Availability, PHB p112
Economics - Supply and Demand, DMG p140

It is important to say here, that those paragraphs are not found in chapters like "changing the rules", or related to phrases like "The DM is god, he can change whatever rule he wants".

Thus changing/setting prices and availability, is not house-ruling. It's flexibility, provided by RAW.



As i understand it, and by my experience with the above mentioned adjudications, RAW provides the DM all the tools needed to restrain wizards as much as he wants, without any house-ruling involved.

I say it's enough to "unbrake" the wizard, if one wants to.
You say it's not.

I guess that this the point that we agree that we disagree.

That's fine. This is what this forum is also about.

 

[lordxaviar]

ok wow did this get into a pissing match... ok some dms (no offense) lame out and don't bother with spell components..

some of us (nit picky OCD types) do.. I was looking for some advice on the cost of a dragon scale... I have (well im working on it) compiled lists of items from all the older versions and dragon magazine on components... I am looking for som d20 sources im sure there are, I dont take anything as face,, the cost will be based on location, IE the scale of tropical fish in the northern wastes would be astronomical etc...)

one comment on cat fur... (it may yet be for sale in some shops in a town without cats or where they are protected also etc...
I also sometimes take into account the quality of a component, and will add to a spell in some way for the extra expense and time the mage put into retrieving said item..
IE (back to cat fur)...the tail fur from The cat familiar of so and so Arch mage..
now that would be worth more than a gp...

so rule hawkers.... to be honest... I will gladly undo some of the 3.5 rules as the game was on its way to be Hasbro-ized. (quick example wineskins became water skins- just a lame small example)

I am out to fix and refine back to the gygaxian vision of his world, before corporate s stole it out from underneath him.