jgbrowning
Hero
Alzrius said:
Ah, yes i did misunderstand. Sorry, my bad. I do think however that, given the history of AD&D1 to AD&D2, the definition of a "new edition" isn't always as drastic as the difference between 2E and 3E.
joe b.
[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend
- Thread starter Intrope
- Start date
Ah, yes i did misunderstand. Sorry, my bad. I do think however that, given the history of AD&D1 to AD&D2, the definition of a "new edition" isn't always as drastic as the difference between 2E and 3E.
joe b.
Droogie
Explorer
jgbrowning said:
Hmm, that being said, it sounds like the changes are going to be more drastic than I thought. Even tho everyone calls the revisions "3.5e", I deluded myself into thinking it was just going to be clarifications, little tweaks, and refinement: 3.1.
I guess it really will be half-way to 4e.
Not that I have a huge problem with that. I'm glad someone lit a fire under the refinement process-- think how long 1st and 2nd Ed. festered without some fresh air.
But I feel bad for the folks with huge collections of d20 books, because backward compatibility (and FORWARD compatibility, like Darkbard mentioned) seems like a bigger issue now.
Perithoth
First Post
More Pit Beef
Hey All,
I am the scooper who posted up the t-shirt stats for the Pit Fiend.
If people are wondering why the Pit Fiend is getting beefier, it is simple... it is a signature monster and it was not living up to its name in its origional 3.0 form. Since this is the only stat block from the new system I had to post up I have no idea if it is the sign of all monsters to come or is an aberation because they wanted to make this bad boy tougher.
Andy C, stated at the meeting that all monsters will be getting their own page in the new MM. No more breaking across the page. All monsters will have art for them too. The book will increase in size to 320 pages but will still be $29.95.
Personally, if the Pit Fiend Stats are a sign of what's to come in the MM, bring it on... as a Judge for a Living Campaign this will help me out when the mod says, "See the Monster Manual" for the monster listed in the encounter.
Other things that I am remembering. I asked about the Lycantrope templates and templates in general. Andy and Skip said the templates will be cleared up. In fact they love templates because it gives the DM and writers more monsters to play with without having to purchase a new book. This is good because the Lycanthropes section is super unclear.
The example of the new process given was simple, a were-wolf is really a multi-class monster and you add levels of "wolf" to the base creature.
That's all for now,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Perithoth
Lord of Grumpiness
Hey All,
I am the scooper who posted up the t-shirt stats for the Pit Fiend.
If people are wondering why the Pit Fiend is getting beefier, it is simple... it is a signature monster and it was not living up to its name in its origional 3.0 form. Since this is the only stat block from the new system I had to post up I have no idea if it is the sign of all monsters to come or is an aberation because they wanted to make this bad boy tougher.
Andy C, stated at the meeting that all monsters will be getting their own page in the new MM. No more breaking across the page. All monsters will have art for them too. The book will increase in size to 320 pages but will still be $29.95.
Personally, if the Pit Fiend Stats are a sign of what's to come in the MM, bring it on... as a Judge for a Living Campaign this will help me out when the mod says, "See the Monster Manual" for the monster listed in the encounter.
Other things that I am remembering. I asked about the Lycantrope templates and templates in general. Andy and Skip said the templates will be cleared up. In fact they love templates because it gives the DM and writers more monsters to play with without having to purchase a new book. This is good because the Lycanthropes section is super unclear.
The example of the new process given was simple, a were-wolf is really a multi-class monster and you add levels of "wolf" to the base creature.
That's all for now,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Perithoth
Lord of Grumpiness
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Re: More Pit Beef
It's an Aberration now and not an Outsider?! Oh no!
Seriously though, thats what a lot of us thought; that such a monster was just meant to be tougher.
Ha! They finally caved on that huh? I knew those excuses we were being fed when 3E was released about why the entries would be broken across the pages was so much bunk! Although this makes me think that new monsters won't be added despite the page increase then. It's just old monsters all getting a page of their own.
Hmm, I'm glad they're revising templates, but I don't like the example given. Templates are supposed to be apart from levels. You add it, and then thats it across the board, no levels necessary. Well, I guess we'll see.
Perithoth said:
It's an Aberration now and not an Outsider?! Oh no!
Seriously though, thats what a lot of us thought; that such a monster was just meant to be tougher.Ha! They finally caved on that huh? I knew those excuses we were being fed when 3E was released about why the entries would be broken across the pages was so much bunk! Although this makes me think that new monsters won't be added despite the page increase then. It's just old monsters all getting a page of their own.
Hmm, I'm glad they're revising templates, but I don't like the example given. Templates are supposed to be apart from levels. You add it, and then thats it across the board, no levels necessary. Well, I guess we'll see.
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Knightfall
World of Kulan DM
I will reserve judgement until I see the new books. It does sound like the 3.5E MM is definitely one to get, simply for the cool new art and one page per monster format. (I prefer that.)
Cheers!
KF72
Cheers!
KF72
demiurge1138
Inventor of Super-Toast
I'm very fond of the NeoPit Fiend. For one thing, silver weapons are useful again! Second, I like the idea of the tactical breakdown. Only problem is that it would now be even worse for players to read the MM.
Demiurge out.
Demiurge out.
Lord Zardoz
Explorer
Re: why
I think I can partly answer those questions.
With the current implementation of Damage Reduction, against any party with a cleric or wizard who has access to Greater Magic weapon, Damage Reduction is a non issue. And it is quite likely that many creatures were balanced with the consideration that in CR appropriate combats, the damage reduction would actually matter. That is enough to explain many of the changes in the DR system.
In addition to that, in the greater scheme of things, it is quite likely that
the more common DR penetrating weapons will be common enough for parties at some point in any sufficiently long running campaign. In those situations, in order to keep the Pit Fiend as at least a "Viable" opponent against more powerful parties, that you need to be able to fall back on the most reliable of survival measure. High HP and a good AC tend to remain effective even when every other defence is bypassed.
END COMMUNICATION
Quasqueton said:
I think I can partly answer those questions.
With the current implementation of Damage Reduction, against any party with a cleric or wizard who has access to Greater Magic weapon, Damage Reduction is a non issue. And it is quite likely that many creatures were balanced with the consideration that in CR appropriate combats, the damage reduction would actually matter. That is enough to explain many of the changes in the DR system.
In addition to that, in the greater scheme of things, it is quite likely that
the more common DR penetrating weapons will be common enough for parties at some point in any sufficiently long running campaign. In those situations, in order to keep the Pit Fiend as at least a "Viable" opponent against more powerful parties, that you need to be able to fall back on the most reliable of survival measure. High HP and a good AC tend to remain effective even when every other defence is bypassed.
END COMMUNICATION
Personally I think the new Pit Fiend looks cool. I never really used high CR outsiders because they seemed a bit weak to me. Now I will.
I am gratefull that they aren't just changin a few rules. When you create a new book like this you really need to tweak the monsters to take into account both a better understanding of old rules and any new rules that were written.
So long as they don't change any really core mechanics I won't have a problem.
I am gratefull that they aren't just changin a few rules. When you create a new book like this you really need to tweak the monsters to take into account both a better understanding of old rules and any new rules that were written.
So long as they don't change any really core mechanics I won't have a problem.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
This really has me concerned about the ability of PCs to function.
If that is still a CR 16 creature, it's SR will mean that a 16th level wizard with greater spell penetration will need to roll a 16 in order to effect it with any spells. Without Greater Spell Penetration, there's no point in even trying. And the wizard had better have his spells prepared as Sonic damage and have Greater Spell Focus in the school or they probably won't do anything anyway. Heck, even with all that, the odds of both getting past the pit fiend's SR and getting it to fail a save are probably 1 in 20. (Actually, assuming a starting 16 int, a +6 headband, and 4 level increases Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, the Horrid Wilting DC could be 30. Which means there's actually a 50% chance the Pit Fiend could fail. So with Greater Spell Focus and Greater Spell Penetration, the best a wizard can manage is a one in ten chance of dealing significant damage to the Pit Fiend with direct damage magic).
So wizards will need to do other things against it. But other things like what? If the current Summon Monster charts are kept, there's nothing that will even be able to hit the pit fiend's armor class--let alone get past it's holysilver DR. (Unless the PC summons another demon or a devil of course). So evocations are out. Summonings are out. About the only thing left is buffing fighters with mass haste, etc. But how will they do against it?
16th level fighter defense focussed: attack bonus +30/+25/+20 (+16 BAB +8 str (26 str-16+3 (level)+1 inherent+6 belt) +5 weapon +1 weapon focus).
Damage: 1d10+15 +2d6 vs evil (+5 Holy Bastard Sword) avg 26.5/hit
AC: 46 (10+7 (+5 lg shield) +13 (+5 fullplate of moderate fortification) +5 amulet of natural armor +5 ring of deflection +4 Haste +1 dex +1 dodge feat)
Granted, this is something of a best case scenario. Even then though, the fighter is only likely to do 42 points of damage per round. And, while the Pit Fiend isn't too likely to hit him (requiring a 16+ to hit) it's got much worse things to do to him like quickened mass hold monster+Coup de Grace (hey, he's Eevil).
How about an offense focussed 16th level character?
Attack bonus +33/+28/+23 (+16 BAB +11 str (str 18+3 level +1 inherent+6 belt +4 rage) +5 weapon +1 weapon focus)
Damage: 1d12+23+2d6 vs evil (+5 Holy Silver Greataxe)
AC: 44 (10+5 (+3 animated large shield) +10 (+5 mithral breastplate) +5 amulet of natural armor +5 ring of protection +4 dex +1 dodge feat +4 haste)
This fighter is likely to do 68 points of damage per round. Still, the meteor swarm will take him out before he beats the pit fiend--assuming the quickened mass hold monster doesn't do it first.
The party's cleric might send him packing with Holy Word but faces the same spell resistance problem as the wizard--he needs to roll a 16 in order to touch the creature (and that's with Greater Spell Penetration). He might ward the party with Holy Aura too. But that's unlikely to do any good. SR 25 won't help much when the thing's caster level is figured in (probably at least 17 considering the spells it tosses). And its other effects won't beat the Pit Fiend's SR. When summoning monsters, the cleric suffers the same problem as the wizard. . . except he can't even summon the demons or devils that might get past its DR.
So, assuming that the rogue is a similar damage dealer to the defensive fighter (unlikely as rogues won't be hitting AC 40 easily) and that there's an offensive fighter in the group and that both of them make their saves against the fear and the mass hold monster and that the meteor swarm doesn't kill either of them for some reason, they might just kill it by round 3 or 4. However, I can't see that fight as being 20% of their resources. It sounds a lot more to me like a tough fight or even "pull out all the stops because otherwise you'll all die."
In essence, the rules change made the creature tougher--certainly more than CR 16--but much less interesting to fight since it's really only vulnerable to one or two tactics. I'm glad that outsiders are getting more hit points. They've always gone down like chumps when I've used them. However, increasing their SR, to unbeatable levels and pumping their AC and physical attacks etc too is likely to make them uninteresting creatures to fight.
If that is still a CR 16 creature, it's SR will mean that a 16th level wizard with greater spell penetration will need to roll a 16 in order to effect it with any spells. Without Greater Spell Penetration, there's no point in even trying. And the wizard had better have his spells prepared as Sonic damage and have Greater Spell Focus in the school or they probably won't do anything anyway. Heck, even with all that, the odds of both getting past the pit fiend's SR and getting it to fail a save are probably 1 in 20. (Actually, assuming a starting 16 int, a +6 headband, and 4 level increases Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, the Horrid Wilting DC could be 30. Which means there's actually a 50% chance the Pit Fiend could fail. So with Greater Spell Focus and Greater Spell Penetration, the best a wizard can manage is a one in ten chance of dealing significant damage to the Pit Fiend with direct damage magic).
So wizards will need to do other things against it. But other things like what? If the current Summon Monster charts are kept, there's nothing that will even be able to hit the pit fiend's armor class--let alone get past it's holysilver DR. (Unless the PC summons another demon or a devil of course). So evocations are out. Summonings are out. About the only thing left is buffing fighters with mass haste, etc. But how will they do against it?
16th level fighter defense focussed: attack bonus +30/+25/+20 (+16 BAB +8 str (26 str-16+3 (level)+1 inherent+6 belt) +5 weapon +1 weapon focus).
Damage: 1d10+15 +2d6 vs evil (+5 Holy Bastard Sword) avg 26.5/hit
AC: 46 (10+7 (+5 lg shield) +13 (+5 fullplate of moderate fortification) +5 amulet of natural armor +5 ring of deflection +4 Haste +1 dex +1 dodge feat)
Granted, this is something of a best case scenario. Even then though, the fighter is only likely to do 42 points of damage per round. And, while the Pit Fiend isn't too likely to hit him (requiring a 16+ to hit) it's got much worse things to do to him like quickened mass hold monster+Coup de Grace (hey, he's Eevil).
How about an offense focussed 16th level character?
Attack bonus +33/+28/+23 (+16 BAB +11 str (str 18+3 level +1 inherent+6 belt +4 rage) +5 weapon +1 weapon focus)
Damage: 1d12+23+2d6 vs evil (+5 Holy Silver Greataxe)
AC: 44 (10+5 (+3 animated large shield) +10 (+5 mithral breastplate) +5 amulet of natural armor +5 ring of protection +4 dex +1 dodge feat +4 haste)
This fighter is likely to do 68 points of damage per round. Still, the meteor swarm will take him out before he beats the pit fiend--assuming the quickened mass hold monster doesn't do it first.
The party's cleric might send him packing with Holy Word but faces the same spell resistance problem as the wizard--he needs to roll a 16 in order to touch the creature (and that's with Greater Spell Penetration). He might ward the party with Holy Aura too. But that's unlikely to do any good. SR 25 won't help much when the thing's caster level is figured in (probably at least 17 considering the spells it tosses). And its other effects won't beat the Pit Fiend's SR. When summoning monsters, the cleric suffers the same problem as the wizard. . . except he can't even summon the demons or devils that might get past its DR.
So, assuming that the rogue is a similar damage dealer to the defensive fighter (unlikely as rogues won't be hitting AC 40 easily) and that there's an offensive fighter in the group and that both of them make their saves against the fear and the mass hold monster and that the meteor swarm doesn't kill either of them for some reason, they might just kill it by round 3 or 4. However, I can't see that fight as being 20% of their resources. It sounds a lot more to me like a tough fight or even "pull out all the stops because otherwise you'll all die."
In essence, the rules change made the creature tougher--certainly more than CR 16--but much less interesting to fight since it's really only vulnerable to one or two tactics. I'm glad that outsiders are getting more hit points. They've always gone down like chumps when I've used them. However, increasing their SR, to unbeatable levels and pumping their AC and physical attacks etc too is likely to make them uninteresting creatures to fight.
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