D&D 4.0 - What the?

[DonAdam]

Alot of what is being said sounds fine for a d20 fantasy system, but would compromise D&D's identity.

What I would like to see:
-simplified races; I don't need half a page of abilities for every race
-along these same lines, I don't need 8,936 subraces of elves
-toned down dwarves
-no more kender halflings
-a way to pull off a core, lightly armored fighter
-a less complex round structure; it works for me just fine, but its a pain in the butt to describe to newbies (and i've taught alot) just how much their character can do
-the spells restored to balance (I think 3.5 totally threw them out of whack and killed some sacred cows; Spider Climb as 2nd level???)
-the death of power-up prestige classes
-a real fix to multiclass spellcasters

 

[Alzrius]

I personally don't think we're going to be seeing D&D 4E anytime soon.

People like to complain that Hasbro, being a big evil corporation, only wants to separate us from our money, and is simply looking for the next new product that is going to make us run to the stores and pick it up en masse.

That, however, isn't giving Hasbro enough credit. These people spend huge amounts of money on market research, getting into the minds of the people they sell to. They're not going to be so foolish as to do something that would so brazenly upset the very people they want to sell to.

Even if we look at this demographically, we're okay for several more years to come. AD&D 1E lasted for roughly 14 years (1974-1988) and 2E for 12 (1988-2000), so 3E has, going by the pattern shown here, until around 2010 or so, and even then you have to wonder how the revision may or may not affect that timetable.

There's also one major thing that everyone seems to be forgetting here: the OGL.

The d20 system is posted under the Open Gaming License, and it can't be removed. New parts are able to be added, and amended perhaps, but once something is up there, it's up there to stay. Should a 4E be released that is universally disliked, the myriad other d20 companies out there can simply keep right on using the 3/3.5 SRD.

I think that the current edition of the game, although revised, is here to stay for a long while.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Although I'm happy with the current edition of D&D, here are a few things I would like to be changed...

• Reduce the number of "save or die" spells and effects. It's frusterating to PCs when half the party is immediately wiped out by a wail of the banshee spell, and it's frusterating to DMs when the encounter they've been leading up to for the last few sessions is ended in the first round because the party's wizard got lucky with a phantasmal killer spell.
• Reduce the number of elf subraces. Do we really need aquatic elves? Why not simply use merfolk? And don't get me started on wood elves, who are slender like all elves, but somehow as strong as the average half-orc.
• The 4th Edition DMG should come with a set of mass combat rules, even if they aren't real in-depth.
• Even though I'm in favor of vancian magic, it would be nice to see variant magic systems included in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

 

[Felon]

I'd like to see a D20 Fantasy at some point. Ideally, D&D 4.0 would come out first, having all of the familiar core classes. At some point afterwards (perhaps a year) D20F is published which "pulls back the curtain" so to speak, showing how you can construct and re-construct those core classes on your own using combinations of the six D20F basic classes (strong hero, fast hero, etc.) and advanced classes. For instance, the rage ability of the Barbarian would wind up under the Strong Hero talent tree, Damage Reduction would fall under the Tough Hero tree (as it does now), and its Fast Movement and Uncanny Dodge abilities would fall under the Fast Hero talent tree (as it does now). At some point it becomes a Barbarian advanced class, that merges and embelishes upon all three features.

But to provide a wish list with more realistic expectations, I'd like to see a lot of smaller fixes:

1) Allow for more heroic uses of skills. Roll the monk's slow fall ability into the Tumble skill so that other nimble classes can benefit. Take the Jump skill back to the drawing board, dropping the notion that its supposed to provide a realistic simulation of the limits on how far an olympic athlete or pro basketball player can high jump; think Crouching Tiger instead (with a lot of ranks anyway).

2) I don't think the armor class system needs as much of an overhaul as others. I understand that at higher levels combat would become a grind if the number of hits routinely exceeded misses in a fight. But the core books should feature suits of heavy armor that go beyond the +8 that full plate provides, such as the heavy full plate from the Underdark book. One simple fix is for adamantine armor to add to AC rather than (or perhaps in addition to) bestowing damage reduction. Once heavy armor has gotten a boost, then some options for designing lightly-armored quick heroes can be improved as well. The Dodge feat, for instance, could grant a significant bonus to AC.

3) Reign in sneak attack a bit. It makes other offensive class features look flacid in comparison (e.g. paladin's smite, ranger favored enemy damage bonus, fighter weapon specialization, monk stunning fist), and the damage gets out of hand once the rogue acquires multiple attacks per round. For instance, make the sneak attack damage only usable with one attack per round (similar to the Order of the Bow Initiate's class ability in The Complete Warrior), or make it a more a sane amount of damage per attack, such as +1 point of damage point per rogue level.

4) Add in hero points. Create some combat maneuvers that require the expenditure of hero points, some of which are only available now as feats. Realize that most classes have too few feats to use one up for a feat that, for instance, allows an archer to pin a target's sleeve to a tree (provided the target's got a sleeve, and provided he's standing right next to a tree). Allow action points to recover hit points, in order to reduce utter dependency on having healer classes in the party.

5) Revamp the ability to turn undead. It's an ability that makes fights against undead awkward and often quite boring. One possibility is for it to work sort of like 3e's blade barrier. If an undead stays within the radius of a cleric while he's turning, the undead takes 1d8/level damage.

6) Monte said it best: no class should have d4 hit dice. Actually, scratch that. No core class should have d4 hit dice. Give Wizards and Sorcerer d6 hit dice, then they actually have something to trade off when designing PrC's that has a measly d4 HD but offers some other nifty arcane-casting abilities.

7) Familiars should not suck so darn badly. Looking at how druid/ranger animal companions can be regained the day after being killed with no penalties whatsoever, it seems stupid and needless to have wizards losing XP when their pets die, and having to wait a year before they can acquire another.

8) Don't have monk unarmed damage increase past 1d6. Instead, let them add their Wisdom modifier to damage, both from unarmed strikes and monk weapons. This way, some monks will focus on unarmed, and some will focus on weapons. This creates options. It also is a boon for a sub-12th-level monk who has a lukewarm Strength score (and it is usually the sub-12th-level monk that folks complain about). Bestow Quivering Palm, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, and Abundant Step at earlier levels, so they become more attractive draws for players. Consider giving the monk some cool offensive abilities, such allowing his attacks to not only stun, but to induce a variety of status effects (sleep, blindness, feeblemind, etc.).

 

[MerricB]

Even if we look at this demographically, we're okay for several more years to come. AD&D 1E lasted for roughly 14 years (1974-1988) and 2E for 12 (1988-2000), so 3E has, going by the pattern shown here, until around 2010 or so, and even then you have to wonder how the revision may or may not affect that timetable.

Your numbers are a bit off.

OD&D lasted 3 years, 1974-1977
AD&D lasted 10 years, 1979-1989
AD&D 2nd Edition lasted 11 years, 1989-2000 (with hiatus, I guess)
D&D 3rd Edition is ongoing: 2000-

Cheers!

 

[diaglo]

Your numbers are a bit off.

OD&D lasted 3 years, 1974-1977!

lasted my arse. some of us are still playing

you meant supported by the company.

1edADnD...i always go with 1977 - 1989. considering some of the MMs were released in late november of 1977.

 

[glass]

Hi these are my wishes a 4th edition:

Released 2009-10.

Vancian magic retained, at least for 'wizards'. Probably ditch it for clerics, and definately for rangers and paladins.

Keep the current arrangement of 4 'core' general classes plus a few oddballs. It may not make much sense, but it is D&D and I like it!

An end to the strange notion that inborn talent and years of study are mutually exclusive. I think that sorcerer should be a feat of feat chain. There should still be two kinds of primary arcane caster: one vancian and one not, but they should be more different (and either should be able to benefit from the sorcerer feat, of other inborn talent spellcasting boosters - there should be a few).

Mages should be far and away better spallcasters than cleric and druids (or anyone else). Possibly include 10th level arcane spells at 19th/20th level.

Include a lot more feats in general, both per character and to choose from. Every class should get at least a few bonus feats, from a class specific list (fighters should probably still get the most).

All feats should be available to all classes although some classes could possibly get a discount on prereqs (for example, fighters can get weapon spec 2 points of bab earlier or whatever). If it is unique to one class, it should be a class ability, not a feat.

Every class should also get unique (or semi-unique) class abilities, at every few levels throughout there carreer, either fixed or from a palette or path (depending on which class).

Oh, and noone should have d4 HD! Except maybe some caster PrCs.



glass.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Bah, what I'd like is simple.

• A concept of background skills, so that people can know some useful skills just to flesh out their characters. Maybe just 2 skillpoints per decade of life, used on a list limited by race. This gives players a better way to get a handle on their character's background, and it makes it easier for them to have a life outside of adventuring. Even if your games don't shift out of the heroic mode very often, these skills add depth and uniqueness.
• Reduce the amount of magic items required to adventure. Make a belt of giant strength really mean something because of how powerful it is. Make it so it's unlikely any character would have more than 7 magic items at all. Put the focus on the character's skills, whatever level he's at, not the gear he possesses.

Hmmm... you've described the Fuzion System and MERP. Both have background and adolescent skills. Likewise, Magic items are fairly rare in MERP and even when you do have them most of the time they only enhance your existing abilities rather than give you something totally new.

 

[TiQuinn]

Oh, what the heck; I haven't yet participated in one of these before.


What would I want to see?

-Fewer base classes, but more customization through feats and skills. Keep Fighter / Priest / Rogue / Mage (Wizard now carries too much "preparation" connotation, and Sorcerer is now "on the fly.")

-Break Feats into feats and talents, like in d20 Modern. Use the Talents to separate Wizard from Sorcerer, and Druid from Cleric.

-Reign in the power of the damned clerics. The "munchkin" in me loves 'em, but they do strike me as being TOO self-sufficient. NO class is as self-sufficient as a tricked-out cleric, I've seen in time and time again in many games. Artillery platform, healer, and decent straight-up fighter, the cleric is marginally overpowered.

-I don't know how, but find a way to slightly divorce magic item acquisition from estimation of CR's and power levels. It doesn't have to go away, but tone it down slightly, to assume that a magic +1 weapon is NOT gained by level 4, but by level 5 or 6 perhaps. Assume one-shot power acquisition through level 2-3, with permanent magic items by level 4.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Wow...everything that Henry said is what I want to see, down to a T!

 

[Davelozzi]

4.0 draft to everyone, why not only RPGA (they do that now a bit don't they?) and maybe a select larger group of respected gamers outside WotC.

Oh yes, I absolutely agree with that. Any new edition should be very heavily playtested. Whether or not the RPGA is involved I could care less, but I'd definately want to see lots of people out there playtesting the rules. I just think that by doing it through the usual playtester channels (non-disclosures and all that) it'll make the people involved feel more responsible and they'll get better feedback, whereas if they released it to the public, there would just be a deafening cacophany of whining from a million people who just like to bitch.