D&D 5th Edition!!! (WITH POLL!!!)
- Thread starter Jimlock
- Start date
I like some of the things 4E has done in terms of making it easier for the DM. However, 3.5 still kept a lot of the traditions from 1E/2E days, but added too much complexity. I think if you can combine the simplicity of DMing 4E and the traditions of 1E/2E from 3.5E, you'll get my vote if you can do it while trimming back on the complexity of 3.5E.
(I like some of what the folks at Pathfinder did, but they also made the base classes more complex...)
(I like some of what the folks at Pathfinder did, but they also made the base classes more complex...)
Raven Crowking
First Post
I'm in the process of doing what I would do.
It is actually much harder (esp. time consuming!) than I suspected, but the results are very satisfying.
It is actually much harder (esp. time consuming!) than I suspected, but the results are very satisfying.
delericho
Legend
I've written at some length about what I'd do with 5e (most recenty here).
In general, it is my feeling that it's a bad idea to go backwards - there are a number of genuine improvements in 4e over 3e. So, while my ideal version of the game would look a lot more like 3e than 4e (and a lot more like Star Wars Saga then either), I certainly wouldn't disgard 4e wholesale.
Oh, and also... I firmly believe that the single most important product in the like is the Starter/Basic Set. Start by getting that right, and build outwards. Any other strategy means you're doomed to sell almost entirely to the same old faces.
In general, it is my feeling that it's a bad idea to go backwards - there are a number of genuine improvements in 4e over 3e. So, while my ideal version of the game would look a lot more like 3e than 4e (and a lot more like Star Wars Saga then either), I certainly wouldn't disgard 4e wholesale.
Oh, and also... I firmly believe that the single most important product in the like is the Starter/Basic Set. Start by getting that right, and build outwards. Any other strategy means you're doomed to sell almost entirely to the same old faces.
Jimlock
Adventurer
I haven't played 4th edition. I've only watched game sessions on the Internet, and what i witnessed wasn't appealing. The books don't attract me either.
2nd e is what i grew up with, so i love this game to death.
3rd was met with reluctance at first, then i enjoyed it greatly... and then time proved how it was more complex than needed. I still enjoy it greatly though... That's what I play still.
People seem to admire 4th's simplicity, but i somehow fail to see how "so" simple the game has become. IMO it sure is simpler than 3.x, but 4th edition's downsides are so many and important, that this simplicity cannot make the difference.
I believe that 5th should go for simplicity, but not in the way 4th has done it.
5th should try and bring some of the old editions back, and regain on old-school players. I'm fairly reluctant as to how a tabletop game can take on the video game industry in the long run, therefore I believe that MMORPG-logic should be left aside. The game should try to improve its own merits, and not try to pretend being something else.
I would also appreciate it, if the game would take a more serious turn, in terms of roleplaying. Well... not just roleplaying... I would also like to see D&D going more for investigation/mystery/riddle-solving... anything that could arouse the creativity of the gamers... and make a game equally rewarding for those who do not believe that "slashing my way through" is the only possible solution to a problem... Perhaps this answer to this is: "try a different game!" But I love the D&D universe too much to give it away. I love White-Wolf games a great deal as well, and play/have played them like crazy, but when I Play D&D I always make the link with my first gaming experience... and well... its different... i don't know how i can put it into words...
2nd e is what i grew up with, so i love this game to death.
3rd was met with reluctance at first, then i enjoyed it greatly... and then time proved how it was more complex than needed. I still enjoy it greatly though... That's what I play still.
People seem to admire 4th's simplicity, but i somehow fail to see how "so" simple the game has become. IMO it sure is simpler than 3.x, but 4th edition's downsides are so many and important, that this simplicity cannot make the difference.
I believe that 5th should go for simplicity, but not in the way 4th has done it.
5th should try and bring some of the old editions back, and regain on old-school players. I'm fairly reluctant as to how a tabletop game can take on the video game industry in the long run, therefore I believe that MMORPG-logic should be left aside. The game should try to improve its own merits, and not try to pretend being something else.
I would also appreciate it, if the game would take a more serious turn, in terms of roleplaying. Well... not just roleplaying... I would also like to see D&D going more for investigation/mystery/riddle-solving... anything that could arouse the creativity of the gamers... and make a game equally rewarding for those who do not believe that "slashing my way through" is the only possible solution to a problem... Perhaps this answer to this is: "try a different game!" But I love the D&D universe too much to give it away. I love White-Wolf games a great deal as well, and play/have played them like crazy, but when I Play D&D I always make the link with my first gaming experience... and well... its different... i don't know how i can put it into words...
Mercurius
Legend
Haven't seen one of these in, what, a record few months? Nothing like a good old 5E wishlist shindig!
Good points, delericho, evidently I must spread XP around first before giving you more. I too don't want to "go back," but also feel that 4E left some important elements behind that I'd like to see (re-)integrated into 5E.
PLAY STYLE: I'd like to see more options for styles of play and the power level of a campaign's starting point. I do not want to go back to 1E-style early levels, especially for magic users, but it would be nice to see some kind of variant system for Novice or Apprentice Tier that facilitates "off the farm" campaigns.
RITUALS/SPELLS/POWERS: I'd like to see the re-integration of rituals into the flow of the 4E game session. In that regard, I'd like to see arcane powers become closer to pre-4E spells. I've grown to enjoy the power system but feel that it needs to be more "invisible" to the play environment so that there aren't just the four roles-as-classes wearing different "clothes," but many different classes with different sub-rules, all based around the power structure but without just being re-fluffings of the same old powers.
MAGIC ITEMS: Magic items need work. I'm not sure what the solution is, but the problem seems to be with too many items having just a daily power; they just don't see magical anymore. In previous editions you'd have magic items that had powers that couldn't be reproduced by player powers; I'd like see more unique powers in magic items (e.g. the old style vorpal weapon).
TIERS/MODULARITY: I love the tier system and would like to see its strengths exploited in greater modularity, perhaps with guidelines for starting campaigns at different tiers; this would work well with the so-called Novice or Apprentice Tier I mentioned above, but maybe also an Immortal tier beyond Epic.
BASIC/ADVANCED: More modularity in general. And this leads me to the biggest change I'd like to see, and it relates to delericho's starter set: I'd like to see a simpler core system, with most rules being optional and "Advanced." That means all classes would be akin to a pre-packaged build with a few choices, but no feats or powers or even skills; if a given campaign or player wants more detail and customization, they can "un-pack" an aspect of their character into feats, powers, skills, talents, etc. But Advanced and Basic characters could work in the same campaign, depending upon what the DM allows and the players want.
COMBAT: In a similar sense, I'd like to see combat that is easier to run without miniatures. As I've said before, I like using miniatures I just don't like having to use them (OK, I don't "have to" but the rules take miniatures for granted). Even more so, I'd like see quicker combat! This has improved, but still...
HOUSE RULES/CUSTOMIZATION: Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I'd like to see more guidelines for creation of classes, magic items, feats, etc...more customization; a feature within Insider that allows the DM to create stuff and just plug it in. This is a huge problem right now - that the canonical tools, even the rule books, don't allow or at least facilitate house rules and DM creations, one of the hallmarks of the D&D experience. I'm sure it isn't easy to program, say, a template for creating magic items into Character Builder, but you've just got to make it happen, WotC.
I'm sure there's more, but I'll leave it there for now.
Good points, delericho, evidently I must spread XP around first before giving you more. I too don't want to "go back," but also feel that 4E left some important elements behind that I'd like to see (re-)integrated into 5E.
PLAY STYLE: I'd like to see more options for styles of play and the power level of a campaign's starting point. I do not want to go back to 1E-style early levels, especially for magic users, but it would be nice to see some kind of variant system for Novice or Apprentice Tier that facilitates "off the farm" campaigns.
RITUALS/SPELLS/POWERS: I'd like to see the re-integration of rituals into the flow of the 4E game session. In that regard, I'd like to see arcane powers become closer to pre-4E spells. I've grown to enjoy the power system but feel that it needs to be more "invisible" to the play environment so that there aren't just the four roles-as-classes wearing different "clothes," but many different classes with different sub-rules, all based around the power structure but without just being re-fluffings of the same old powers.
MAGIC ITEMS: Magic items need work. I'm not sure what the solution is, but the problem seems to be with too many items having just a daily power; they just don't see magical anymore. In previous editions you'd have magic items that had powers that couldn't be reproduced by player powers; I'd like see more unique powers in magic items (e.g. the old style vorpal weapon).
TIERS/MODULARITY: I love the tier system and would like to see its strengths exploited in greater modularity, perhaps with guidelines for starting campaigns at different tiers; this would work well with the so-called Novice or Apprentice Tier I mentioned above, but maybe also an Immortal tier beyond Epic.
BASIC/ADVANCED: More modularity in general. And this leads me to the biggest change I'd like to see, and it relates to delericho's starter set: I'd like to see a simpler core system, with most rules being optional and "Advanced." That means all classes would be akin to a pre-packaged build with a few choices, but no feats or powers or even skills; if a given campaign or player wants more detail and customization, they can "un-pack" an aspect of their character into feats, powers, skills, talents, etc. But Advanced and Basic characters could work in the same campaign, depending upon what the DM allows and the players want.
COMBAT: In a similar sense, I'd like to see combat that is easier to run without miniatures. As I've said before, I like using miniatures I just don't like having to use them (OK, I don't "have to" but the rules take miniatures for granted). Even more so, I'd like see quicker combat! This has improved, but still...
HOUSE RULES/CUSTOMIZATION: Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I'd like to see more guidelines for creation of classes, magic items, feats, etc...more customization; a feature within Insider that allows the DM to create stuff and just plug it in. This is a huge problem right now - that the canonical tools, even the rule books, don't allow or at least facilitate house rules and DM creations, one of the hallmarks of the D&D experience. I'm sure it isn't easy to program, say, a template for creating magic items into Character Builder, but you've just got to make it happen, WotC.
I'm sure there's more, but I'll leave it there for now.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
This is long, and possibly rambling. And I'm still sure I'll miss something. Additionally, this is pie in the sky, and I sincerely doubt this will happen, but a guy can dream.
1) Use 4e as the framework. The underlying math and modular power system are gold.
2) Base on a software platform, not publication. The base character builder is free and core rules are free. Offer up the character builder as an "app store" to sell both 1st party and 3rd party products that integrate with the character builder. Offer other software packages such as Monster Builder or Virtual Table either as apps or subscriptions. Sell a "Rules Compendium" and box sets as physical products.
3) Characters built on 3 poles: race, class, and theme. Class defines how you fight, and grants attack powers and bonuses. Race and theme can provide attack powers and bonuses, but focus on developing non-damage/non-combat utility. Roles are less defined, with every "class" functioning more as a striker. Leader, controller, defender, and narrative support functions provided by race and/or class.
4) Powers are built around power sources (martial, arcane), and can be shared between classes. Powers should be built (roughly) with a mind towards simulationist/verisimilitude concerns. No encounter trips, etc. Weapon powers should be at-will. Spells can be at-will or resource constrained.
5) Powers can be active or passive, and feats are subsumed into the power system.
6) Two conjoined resources, healing surges and action points. Spending a healing surge gains an action point. Healing surges provide tension to exploration and combat, action points provide incentive to continue pressing forward. Resource constrained powers (i.e. "dailies") are powered by action points and may also require triggering situations.
7) Race, class, and theme all provide pools of powers to pick from, and also allow you to pick from a greater pool of general powers. Fighter, for example, provides some class features (passive powers) which relate to the "Weapon" keyword, and the fighter can also select any general power with the "Weapon" keyword. Mages can select any general power with the "Arcane" keyword.
8) Explanation and limitation of power sources. Arcane should be tied to the Elemental Chaos, and focus on effects of elemental power and transmutation. Divine provides radiant power which is often creature specific, and also provides healing. Primal is weather, plant, and animal effects, as well as spirit communication. Fey is enchantments, illusions, and misdirections. Shadow is death and necromantic effects.
9) Pick 4 powers at 1st level from list of race, class, and theme powers, and 1 power every level after that. You can have a character almost completely defined by their race or class by picking only racial or theme powers, or ignore them entirely.
1) Use 4e as the framework. The underlying math and modular power system are gold.
2) Base on a software platform, not publication. The base character builder is free and core rules are free. Offer up the character builder as an "app store" to sell both 1st party and 3rd party products that integrate with the character builder. Offer other software packages such as Monster Builder or Virtual Table either as apps or subscriptions. Sell a "Rules Compendium" and box sets as physical products.
3) Characters built on 3 poles: race, class, and theme. Class defines how you fight, and grants attack powers and bonuses. Race and theme can provide attack powers and bonuses, but focus on developing non-damage/non-combat utility. Roles are less defined, with every "class" functioning more as a striker. Leader, controller, defender, and narrative support functions provided by race and/or class.
4) Powers are built around power sources (martial, arcane), and can be shared between classes. Powers should be built (roughly) with a mind towards simulationist/verisimilitude concerns. No encounter trips, etc. Weapon powers should be at-will. Spells can be at-will or resource constrained.
5) Powers can be active or passive, and feats are subsumed into the power system.
6) Two conjoined resources, healing surges and action points. Spending a healing surge gains an action point. Healing surges provide tension to exploration and combat, action points provide incentive to continue pressing forward. Resource constrained powers (i.e. "dailies") are powered by action points and may also require triggering situations.
7) Race, class, and theme all provide pools of powers to pick from, and also allow you to pick from a greater pool of general powers. Fighter, for example, provides some class features (passive powers) which relate to the "Weapon" keyword, and the fighter can also select any general power with the "Weapon" keyword. Mages can select any general power with the "Arcane" keyword.
8) Explanation and limitation of power sources. Arcane should be tied to the Elemental Chaos, and focus on effects of elemental power and transmutation. Divine provides radiant power which is often creature specific, and also provides healing. Primal is weather, plant, and animal effects, as well as spirit communication. Fey is enchantments, illusions, and misdirections. Shadow is death and necromantic effects.
9) Pick 4 powers at 1st level from list of race, class, and theme powers, and 1 power every level after that. You can have a character almost completely defined by their race or class by picking only racial or theme powers, or ignore them entirely.
Doug McCrae
Legend
New editions of D&D are always much more of a wrench than new editions of other rpgs. Well, except for Mega-Traveller. And Champions Fuzion. And Warhammer 3e. But you know what I mean.
There must, simply must, be a lot of people who say of 5e, "This isn't D&D (to me*)", otherwise it won't feel like the good old traditional new D&D edition process (to me). And these must be people who thought all previous editions did feel like D&D. We need new grognards for every new edition, can't just recycle the old ones.
There also need to be a few people who say of 5e, "This isn't a roleplaying game." They can call it a storygame, or a videogame, or a ccg, or a TV show or an iPhone app or whatever they call the stuff they'll be downloading straight into our brains in twenty years time. Anything, so long as it isn't a roleplaying game.
This is primarily what I require of a new edition of D&D. The specifics don't really matter.
*Section in parentheses optional.
There must, simply must, be a lot of people who say of 5e, "This isn't D&D (to me*)", otherwise it won't feel like the good old traditional new D&D edition process (to me). And these must be people who thought all previous editions did feel like D&D. We need new grognards for every new edition, can't just recycle the old ones.
There also need to be a few people who say of 5e, "This isn't a roleplaying game." They can call it a storygame, or a videogame, or a ccg, or a TV show or an iPhone app or whatever they call the stuff they'll be downloading straight into our brains in twenty years time. Anything, so long as it isn't a roleplaying game.
This is primarily what I require of a new edition of D&D. The specifics don't really matter.
*Section in parentheses optional.
RangerWickett
Legend
Well first of all I'd hire me and a couple of other EN World stalwarts. And I'd set the release date for 2015.
WheresMyD20
First Post
I'd like to see a 5e that has one rule set with multiple layers of complexity, something like:
Core: Keep the core as simple and streamlined as possible. 4 races - human, elf, dwarf, halfling; 4 classes - cleric, fighter, wizard, rogue; no grid & minis... it would look a lot like Basic Fantasy RPG.
Expanded: Add in more races, more classes, more spells, etc.
Optional: Rules for grid & minis combat, rules for customizing characters, etc.
All the layers would be fully playable from levels 1 to the maximum level (20, 30, or whatever is chosen). The Expanded rules would build upon the Core and the Optional would build upon the Expanded. Each group could choose which level of complexity it wants in its D&D.
Core: Keep the core as simple and streamlined as possible. 4 races - human, elf, dwarf, halfling; 4 classes - cleric, fighter, wizard, rogue; no grid & minis... it would look a lot like Basic Fantasy RPG.
Expanded: Add in more races, more classes, more spells, etc.
Optional: Rules for grid & minis combat, rules for customizing characters, etc.
All the layers would be fully playable from levels 1 to the maximum level (20, 30, or whatever is chosen). The Expanded rules would build upon the Core and the Optional would build upon the Expanded. Each group could choose which level of complexity it wants in its D&D.
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