D&D 5th Edition!!! (WITH POLL!!!)

What would you do with D&D 5th edition?

  • I’d improve 4th edition. I like the direction has taken.

    Votes: 113 42.3%
  • I’d rather improve/simplify (?) the d20/3.5 system and go back to that.

    Votes: 106 39.7%
  • I’d go even further back! Revive the old Magic! 2nd e, 1st e… (Thac0 has to come back!)

    Votes: 44 16.5%
  • I’d take Pathfinder and try to improve/change that one instead.

    Votes: 55 20.6%
  • I’d go a bit “White-Wolf” on the Game...More serious… less combat… More RP.

    Votes: 33 12.4%
  • I’d remove the rules completely! Who needs them!? I can storytell killing monsters without dice

    Votes: 3 1.1%
  • I don’t want to get involved. I’m sure they ‘ll come up with a great idea!

    Votes: 19 7.1%
  • I’d make an entirely new game out of it. From scratch! And here’s what I suggest…

    Votes: 12 4.5%

One thing I would definitely like to see is a bunch of optional rules like 2e. For those of you who have forgotten how customizable 2e is, reread the PHB and count how many optional rules there are.
I can see where 4e is a little challenging to customize, but I feel that 3e is the most customizable of any edition. Feats, PrCs and relatively reliable base mechanics lead to a lot of different in-roads for customizability. The 2e optional rules felt more tacked on, in my opinion, than many "amateur" house rules do in 3e. Now, if you are basing your opinion on the fact that they were in the PHB, I will certainly concede. I appreciated that the edition advertised the ability to customize.
 

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I can see where 4e is a little challenging to customize, but I feel that 3e is the most customizable of any edition. Feats, PrCs and relatively reliable base mechanics lead to a lot of different in-roads for customizability.

3E has the edge in mechanically customizing characters (although it also suffers from the presence of 'trap' options), but 2E, IMO, is more open when it comes to customizing the game itself--the way it unfolds in play.
 

I XP'd you above, but I though I'd reply anyways.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but is it possible you could mean: "I would like the next edition to appeal to both you and me, but if that is not possible, I would rather it be aimed at me rather than you.":)

Thanks for the XP. While it would be hard to disagree with that statement, my main point was to make a game that would appeal to a broader audience. Most editions seem to be designed to please those who complained the most about the previous edition. I think it could be possible to listen to both those who complain, but also the ones who applaud, preserving more of the good that was.

Overall, I would like to see a game with supplements that could be used even by those who stick to the older editions. The crunch intensive focus of the 4E sourcebooks make them the edition that is the least usable for fans of older games. I have found myself picking up tons of 2E material lately (even though I dont play 2E), simply because so much of those books can be used for any edition.

-Havard
 

IMO, unity is more of a pipe dream than anything else. This hobby has never been 'unified' beyond the broadest strokes. Remember all those house rules and variants the game was famous for in the 80s and 90s? I think the only reason 3E looked as 'unified' as it did was due to 2E burning out, WotC's marketing blitzkrieg, and flooding the market with compatible product quickly enough. :) Besides, WotC's policy for two editions now has been 'burn the backstock and start all over.' :)

Yes and no. One of the things I am most proud of about being part of the Piazza, is that we have been able to unify fans of Classic D&D, AD&D, 3E and 4E in friendly discussions. I believe the key to success of that forum has been our focus on settings rather than rules. If you like Dragonlance, you have something in common whether you like 4E or 1E.

Right now I think WotC is only focusing on making money from some segments of their market. It would make sense for all parties if they could provide products that would appeal to the entire market, wouldnt it?

-Havard
 

Yes and no. One of the things I am most proud of about being part of the Piazza, is that we have been able to unify fans of Classic D&D, AD&D, 3E and 4E in friendly discussions. I believe the key to success of that forum has been our focus on settings rather than rules. If you like Dragonlance, you have something in common whether you like 4E or 1E.

I'll have to pay it a visit--but as a veteran quasi-DL fan, I know that even settings can get divided and hostile. I'm also not certain that attempting to impose a unity on the fanbase by new events helps--it usually winds up privileging some and alienating others.

Right now I think WotC is only focusing on making money from some segments of their market. It would make sense for all parties if they could provide products that would appeal to the entire market, wouldnt it?

-Havard

It would--but I think D&D is too broad a market for this to be reasonably accomplished with a single product line, and attempts at multiple product lines run into the problem of resources being used on products that, while they may sell to people who wouldn't look at your main line, don't sell as well as mainline products. (If you make 8 AD&D and 4 BD&D products, for example, you may capture a broader audience by attracting people who prefer BD&D, but you may not make as many sales as you would by putting out 12 AD&D products, because you have a larger portion of that audience that will buy anything for AD&D, whether it be 8 products or 12.)

This is why, as I said above, the one thing I really want from WotC (although I remain curious about the new Ravenloft game, which may not be wholly dead, and would give much for SAGA 2nd Edition :) ) is some way of rereleasing the backstock electronically. I think they might even see a sales spike if they do it on a 'vault' basis a la Disney's DVD releases--I know that I kept putting off a lot of PDF purchases back in the day because I assumed they'd always be there.
 

Overall, I would like to see a game with supplements that could be used even by those who stick to the older editions. The crunch intensive focus of the 4E sourcebooks make them the edition that is the least usable for fans of older games. I have found myself picking up tons of 2E material lately (even though I dont play 2E), simply because so much of those books can be used for any edition.

-Havard

This. The 4e Dark Sun pisses me off to no end. I really want to like it, but starting at page 130 for anything usable (for non-4e-er) is just aggrevating. Very poor return on the dollar. This is one purchase I should have gone to the FLGS before buying instead of purchasing online. All but about 3 or 4 4e modules are crap. There is just nothing to buy other than new ways to kill an orc. At this point, 4e has be the "worst edition to for gaming ideas" of the D&D line*.

* Understand I am not ripping the system itself - I've had fun when I played it. I am ripping the lack of content other than crunch. Its like buying just an engine with a few wheels attached to it. I want the rest of the luxuries in my car when I buy it, not just more engine parts.
 

RC's line about trapising refers to James Wyatt's (in)famous line from Races and Classes (emphasis mine).

This was one of the first signs that James Wyatt and I were not on the same page about what we like out of D&D. For me, first and foremost, D&D is a game about those fairy tales, about legends, about myths, about stories, and storytelling, about the power of imagination, the fear of the unknown, and the magical world we wish was there.

Sure, that involves killin' goblins once in a while (and one wants good rules for killin' goblins), but it involves so much more than that, and reducing the game down to raw monsterslaying ("You don't need rules for anything else! Whatever the DM wants!") has been the origin of so many of 4e's problems for me.

Which is why I'd bring the focus back out, hit it broader, make it about the entire adventure. That involves combat, but the goal is not combat. In fact, in certain adventures, combat could be a decidedly horrible idea (because the enemies are so powerful or bizarre that there's little hope of survival in direct combat).

Narrative player? Awesome, you get to experience the story of the adventure.
Sandbox player? Awesome, you get to explore a world full of adventure.
Game player? Awesome, you get to fiddle with numbers to make sure your party has a successful adventure, using strategy to find the most efficient solution.

Encounters are far too specific, narrow, and small of a focus.
 

I'll have to pay it a visit--but as a veteran quasi-DL fan, I know that even settings can get divided and hostile.

True. There are many examples of this. Then again, WotC can choose to present the setting in a way which alienates 50% of its fans, or maybe they dont have to completely change everything with every edition. Most setting fan divides come from clumsy corporate decisios IMO.


I'm also not certain that attempting to impose a unity on the fanbase by new events helps--it usually winds up privileging some and alienating others.

I agree. You cannot impose unity. But you can invite to it and see what happens. The problem with Mearl's article on this topic was that WotC hasnt followed up on the idea. Writing an article doesnt really change anything. Which is why many were angered by it (even if he meant well).


It would--but I think D&D is too broad a market for this to be reasonably accomplished with a single product line, and attempts at multiple product lines run into the problem of resources being used on products that, while they may sell to people who wouldn't look at your main line, don't sell as well as mainline products. (If you make 8 AD&D and 4 BD&D products, for example, you may capture a broader audience by attracting people who prefer BD&D, but you may not make as many sales as you would by putting out 12 AD&D products, because you have a larger portion of that audience that will buy anything for AD&D, whether it be 8 products or 12.)

Yep. This is what makes it tricky. I think it is possible to make 4E products that would appeal to a 2E fan though. Personally I really liked the Planes Below/Above books in this respect.

For a new edition too, I think it would be possible to make it appeal to a broader range of fans. I think they tried with the Red Box. Its just that sticking an old school dragon (no matter how awesome) on the cover, doesnt make the product old school.


This is why, as I said above, the one thing I really want from WotC (although I remain curious about the new Ravenloft game, which may not be wholly dead, and would give much for SAGA 2nd Edition :) ) is some way of rereleasing the backstock electronically. I think they might even see a sales spike if they do it on a 'vault' basis a la Disney's DVD releases--I know that I kept putting off a lot of PDF purchases back in the day because I assumed they'd always be there.

Yes! This would be absolutely awesome! Bring the PDFs back and it would go a long while to please me. :)

-Havard
 

I think D&D is too broad a market for this to be reasonably accomplished with a single product line, and attempts at multiple product lines run into the problem of resources being used on products that, while they may sell to people who wouldn't look at your main line, don't sell as well as mainline products. (If you make 8 AD&D and 4 BD&D products, for example, you may capture a broader audience by attracting people who prefer BD&D, but you may not make as many sales as you would by putting out 12 AD&D products, because you have a larger portion of that audience that will buy anything for AD&D, whether it be 8 products or 12.)
I think you are spot on, here, with your analysis. When D&D was the only RPG it had a huge following because there were no products that did specifically what many (most?) folk wanted, but D&D was "close enough" for everybody. Now that alternatives exist (including previous incarnations of D&D!) the chances of glomming together people with disparate tastes under one compromised banner is close to nil.

In a way I wish that D&D 4E had been published as something other than D&D; D&D just has so many people wanting to claim it as their own. I don't like 4E because it's D&D - I like it because it's a great game; the best Gamist-supporting RPG I have ever seen, in fact. If it had been published as "Points of Light: Holding Back the Dark" I might still have had a great game without hordes of folk saying "Oh, the game shouldn't be like this! It was so much better when it was "Great Blobs of Shade", why can't it stay more shady..." or whatever.

This is why, as I said above, the one thing I really want from WotC (although I remain curious about the new Ravenloft game, which may not be wholly dead, and would give much for SAGA 2nd Edition :) ) is some way of rereleasing the backstock electronically. I think they might even see a sales spike if they do it on a 'vault' basis a la Disney's DVD releases--I know that I kept putting off a lot of PDF purchases back in the day because I assumed they'd always be there.
I never got into Saga, although I hear that it was similar to the last StarWars system, and I found that still to be too compromised to be really good for plot-driven play; maybe it would cope with explorative OK. Definitely sub-par for gamist.

This was one of the first signs that James Wyatt and I were not on the same page about what we like out of D&D. For me, first and foremost, D&D is a game about those fairy tales, about legends, about myths, about stories, and storytelling, about the power of imagination, the fear of the unknown, and the magical world we wish was there.
This is a nice example of the mix of desires out of (older) D&D. I never found D&D good at this sort of thing; even RuneQuest was better, HârnMaster is definitely better and GURPS is pretty reasonable.

I find that, with this kind of play (explorative, basically, with many foci of exploration, although I think the "story" one is a bit of a myth), the setting is at least as important as the game system, and each setting demands a system to suit it, really. A simple core system is often best, anyway, but possibly with lots and lots of setting-based embellishments. I think maybe this is why d20 is so popular with "explorationists" - the base system, if you strip away all the tactical stuff, was very simple, and could be customised to a setting easily. The only problem with 3.x from this angle was that you were left with a few problematic "core" bits, like levels (especially the experience system) and hit points, that were hard to remove - hence why I pick HârnMaster (in Hârn) or something like Basic RolePlaying, Pendragon, Traveller or Bushido.

Sure, that involves killin' goblins once in a while (and one wants good rules for killin' goblins), but it involves so much more than that, and reducing the game down to raw monsterslaying ("You don't need rules for anything else! Whatever the DM wants!") has been the origin of so many of 4e's problems for me.
Even with the sort of rules I would want in 4E for non-combat challenges, I don't think it would suit you. You seem to dislike Gamist play in general - but that is exactly what I want out of 4E; it's what I think it's good at. If the moment of tactical puissance is not the focus of kudos giving, then you might as well cast much of 4E away, IMO. When I play with a different focus, then, I do exactly that - I use another system.

Which is why I'd bring the focus back out, hit it broader, make it about the entire adventure. That involves combat, but the goal is not combat. In fact, in certain adventures, combat could be a decidedly horrible idea (because the enemies are so powerful or bizarre that there's little hope of survival in direct combat).
Which would create a perfectly viable roleplaying game, I'm sure. But too compromised to spark my interest and certainly no substitute for either 4E or HM. More like a retread of older editions, which I drifted away from decades ago.

Narrative player? Awesome, you get to experience the story of the adventure.
But what if you want to make the story, rather than simply "experience" it? There is a solid thread or Narrativist play that wants to drive the story, not be the audience (or even a scripted actor) for it. No version of D&D has really permitted this for anyone except the DM.

Sandbox player? Awesome, you get to explore a world full of adventure.
With a good dose of disbelief suspension, this should be feasible, sure.

Game player? Awesome, you get to fiddle with numbers to make sure your party has a successful adventure, using strategy to find the most efficient solution.
Except that experience shows that systems designed for exploration (both the above types you define) is susceptible to breakage by keen gamers. 4E fixed this, just barely, but the cost of this for "dreaming" play is pretty clear.
 

I never got into Saga, although I hear that it was similar to the last StarWars system, and I found that still to be too compromised to be really good for plot-driven play; maybe it would cope with explorative OK. Definitely sub-par for gamist.

I should clarify: I was referring to the card-based SAGA Rules System used for the Dragonlance: Fifth Age game and Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game, from 1996-1999. I'm pretty certain we'll never see any hint of it again, but the one hope lies in the fact that Mike Mearls was a fan. :)
 

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