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D&D 6th edition - What do you want to see?

DWChancellor

Kobold Enthusiast
Eagles, hawks and snakes are prominent examples in the book. The strongest critters are weak pack critters, not bruisers.

They contribute to combat, in a way comparable to the equivalent level features of other subclasses as demonstrated above by @Sacrosanct . They are bonuses and tactical options for the PC, not agents in and of themselves.
Pretty much the same reason the entire "beast" type of 5E is dramatically weaker than other types at the same CRs. Thanks druids =)

Edit - Whoops - Bring back skill challenges in a big way! Front and center!
 
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Parmandur

Legend
They demonstrated no such thing. Show me these examples, by the way. They aren't in the writeup for the ranger, at all, so far as I can tell. The strongest critters are fine at levels 3 to about 6 or 7. In that level range, you can choose a primarily scouting and advantage granting pet, or a pet that fights beside you, and the class doesn't punish either choice. It's later levels where one option becomes a trap.

What sacrosanct demonstrated was a misunderstanding of the subclass and what it's features are. 24 hp (at most) of mitigated damage isn't an actual thing when the pet can die from incidental damage from an AOE, and when almost no one that wants to play the archetype is really down for constantly replacing their subclass granted pet with an entirely new animal chosen from animals available in the area in which they're currently adventuring. What CR 1/4 beasts are you finding in dungeons, by the way? And it sure as hell isn't 24hp soaked up per long rest.
It takes 8 hours to regain the pet. There is no indication that this can be done as part of a long rest. How much time will the party let you take up regaining a pet every single adventuring day?

The idea that properly scaling HP (ie, HP scaling that doesn't decrease the pet's power over time) would make the pet equal to a full PC indicates a total lack of understanding, or refusal to admit to, what a PC has to work with. The pet has no special class features, very few proficiencies, etc. It's a wolf or whatever with some more HP. That doesn't compare at all to any PC class.

I did, however, demonstrate that your claim that it's supposed to be a scouting pet and NOT a combat companion is objectively false.
I never said it wasn't a combat asset: and as a combat asset, it makes a contribution as is. I agree making a pet archetype that treats pets as casually replaceable and disposable was a strategic mistake from a game design point of view, but it is working as intended.
 

Sacrosanct

Slayer of Keraptis
What sacrosanct demonstrated was a misunderstanding of the subclass and what it's features are.
Nope. Pretty sure I listed all of them out. If there's anyone who has a misunderstanding here, it's you. You seem to be doing exactly what I warned of: assuming the pet has to be a stand alone combatant on equivalent footing as a stand alone PC. That's wrong. The subclass has to be balanced with other other subclass, and that's what I did by the comparison. You're also flawed in that you seem to be focused on combat only when you get many other benefits out of combat that the other subclass does not get. Those things matter. And you also have a misunderstanding on how math works in combat. For example:

24 hp (at most)
Not at most. At least. It takes at least 24 points of damage. And since we know that attacks rarely do exactly the hp total, a higher potential is protected. For example, if a monster does 10 hp of damage every round, it takes all 3 round to kill the pet. 30 points have been protected. And that's assuming every attack hits. Many will miss (especially if said pet is dodging). That sucks up even more attacks that would be directed otherwise at party members. And that's damage absorbed without anyone else having spent any other resources.

of mitigated damage isn't an actual thing when the pet can die from incidental damage from an AOE, and when almost no one that wants to play the archetype is really down for constantly replacing their subclass granted pet with an entirely new animal chosen from animals available in the area in which they're currently adventuring. What CR 1/4 beasts are you finding in dungeons, by the way? And it sure as hell isn't 24hp soaked up per long rest.
That's all speculation. And incorrect. When you long rest, it goes back to full, so theoretically you can reduce damage by an infinite amount depending on how many combats you have in how many days as long as you keep adventuring. All without spending a single resource. So at 3rd level with the classic panther, you can reduce at least 24 points per long rest. At higher levels, it's even more hp. 4 per level if I'm not mistaken.

It takes 8 hours to regain the pet. There is no indication that this can be done as part of a long rest. How much time will the party let you take up regaining a pet every single adventuring day?


I said long rest because anything of significant time more than a short rest is usually practically applicated once per day (it's not likely you'll go through more than one pet per day). Although, technically you don't need a long rest at all.
 

Sacrosanct

Slayer of Keraptis

Parmandur

Legend
Nope. Pretty sure I listed all of them out. If there's anyone who has a misunderstanding here, it's you. You seem to be doing exactly what I warned of: assuming the pet has to be a stand alone combatant on equivalent footing as a stand alone PC. That's wrong. The subclass has to be balanced with other other subclass, and that's what I did by the comparison. You're also flawed in that you seem to be focused on combat only when you get many other benefits out of combat that the other subclass does not get. Those things matter. And you also have a misunderstanding on how math works in combat. For example:



Not at most. At least. It takes at least 24 points of damage. And since we know that attacks rarely do exactly the hp total, a higher potential is protected. For example, if a monster does 10 hp of damage every round, it takes all 3 round to kill the pet. 30 points have been protected. And that's assuming every attack hits. Many will miss (especially if said pet is dodging). That sucks up even more attacks that would be directed otherwise at party members. And that's damage absorbed without anyone else having spent any other resources.



That's all speculation. And incorrect. When you long rest, it goes back to full, so theoretically you can reduce damage by an infinite amount depending on how many combats you have in how many days as long as you keep adventuring. All without spending a single resource. So at 3rd level with the classic panther, you can reduce at least 24 points per long rest. At higher levels, it's even more hp. 4 per level if I'm not mistaken.



I said long rest because anything of significant time more than a short rest is usually practically applicated once per day (it's not likely you'll go through more than one pet per day). Although, technically you don't need a long rest at all.
Don't forget that, per the most recent Errata, the pet will use Hit Dice on a short Rest.
 

Sacrosanct

Slayer of Keraptis
Interesting observation. a stirge is a beast, and I bet never chosen for a pet. But imagine the surprise at a 9th level beast master with a stirge.

"Ha! What a puny pet! You loser, it can't hurt me, it's a STIRGE!"

Stirge attacks at +9 to hit, and latches on, doing an average of 9.5 points of damage automatically each turn without needing to use any of the ranger's attack actions after the first. Enemy goes to swat it thinking it will be easy and finds out it has an AC of 18 and 36 hit points. Hmm....:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

5e, making the Minsc concept a reality!
 

DWChancellor

Kobold Enthusiast
Interesting observation. a stirge is a beast, and I bet never chosen for a pet. But imagine the surprise at a 9th level beast master with a stirge.
Of course...

"The stirge can detach itself by spending 5 feet of its movement. It does so after it drains 10 hit points of blood from the target or the target dies."

Going to need a pack of stirges.
 

Sacrosanct

Slayer of Keraptis
Of course...

"The stirge can detach itself by spending 5 feet of its movement. It does so after it drains 10 hit points of blood from the target or the target dies."

Going to need a pack of stirges.

"No! bad stirge! you keep drinking! I never told you to stop!" lol

Although, now I want to create a beast master with a giant frog pet. Why? Just to humiliate the gnome paladins by swallowing them.
 

doctorbadwolf

Adventurer
Nope. Pretty sure I listed all of them out. If there's anyone who has a misunderstanding here, it's you. You seem to be doing exactly what I warned of: assuming the pet has to be a stand alone combatant on equivalent footing as a stand alone PC. That's wrong. The subclass has to be balanced with other other subclass, and that's what I did by the comparison. You're also flawed in that you seem to be focused on combat only when you get many other benefits out of combat that the other subclass does not get. Those things matter. And you also have a misunderstanding on how math works in combat. For example:



Not at most. At least. It takes at least 24 points of damage. And since we know that attacks rarely do exactly the hp total, a higher potential is protected. For example, if a monster does 10 hp of damage every round, it takes all 3 round to kill the pet. 30 points have been protected. And that's assuming every attack hits. Many will miss (especially if said pet is dodging). That sucks up even more attacks that would be directed otherwise at party members. And that's damage absorbed without anyone else having spent any other resources.

I said long rest because anything of significant time more than a short rest is usually practically applicated once per day (it's not likely you'll go through more than one pet per day). Although, technically you don't need a long rest at all.
The pet dies, it takes 8 hours to get it back, meaning you get it back less often than per long rest. It's pretty simple. Most groups aren't going to want to wait 16 hours for you to get your pet back and take a long rest.

It also isn't balanced, at all, to have a benefit that isn't actually stronger than other subclasses, where you can lose literally your entire subclass for at least the rest of the adventuring day, because a fireball killed a wolf.

As for focusing on combat, that is what is being compared. I did acknowledge the exploration benefits. They are less than the Find Familiar spell. By a significant margin.

A creature with HP roughly comparable to the lower HP classes, and at-level attack and AC numbers, with less damage at most levels (until it gets to attack twice, a wolf is a couple points higher damage than a rogue who isn't getting their SA and has no way to get a second attack, because it adds your Proficiency mod to damage. Which means it does much, much, much less damage than any member of any class does per round, as it should.), and nothing else, is objectively not comparable to a PC. It's that simple. If you can't admit that, there's no point in continuing this. 4 times ranger level HP is not comparable to a PC, which means that the pet loses defensive power as you level. It doesn't maintain it's power level, it gets weaker and weaker.

PC HP by level and monster damage by CR are tuned to eachother in a rising scale. The pet has to either have HP that allows it to survive monster damage at a given level, or the ability to be regained (whether the same pet or a new one) more easily than effectively taking a 16 hour long rest, or it isn't capable of being more than a liability in combat. It is that simple. At higher levels, even tougher pets can insta-die on a successful save against a trap or AoE that isn't even aimed at them specifically.

With a creature that is very clearly intended to participate in combat, this isn't working as intended.

For further evidence, see how they've built pets for subclasses since then. They avoided it for a long time, and now they have provided pets that have a decent chance of survival on successful saves, can be regained by spending a level 1 spell slot, and accomplish their goals using much simpler rules.
 

doctorbadwolf

Adventurer
Also, what cr 1/4 or lower beasts are there that can be found in a dungeon?

Giant Bat
Giant Centipede
Giant Frog
Giant Lizard
Giant Poisonous Snake
Giant Wolf Spider
Giant Rat
Giant Weasel
Mastiff
Poisonous Snake
Stirge
Wolf

And swarms if you're really creative.

If you can't find a beast in a dungeon, you're a pretty poor ranger. And that's assuming you're stuck in a dungeon in the long haul and can't make it outside at some point to find another.
:LOL:

Oh this is good. Yep, every DM is definitely gonna agree with you that those are available in undermountain, or whatever. Sure. This isn't a "bad DMs are bad" argument, either. Good DMs are often going to not want to contrive the availability of the type of creature the ranger likes to bond with, or even any natural beasts at all, in every dungeon. I've run dungeons where nothing natural can live, long term, or where no animals will willingly stay nearby, but I've also run dungeons where none of those would be found, and you'd be stuck with regular sized rodents and snakes.

Beyond that, how often do you have 16 hours in an adventuring day to spend tracking down a new pet (without risk of patrolling enemies, traps, or the like, thus increasing how long the ranger is stuck without their subclass for no good reason) and also take a long rest at some point? Is it fun for you to spend 8 hours getting your subclass back while your friends get a long rest and you have to spend the next adventuring day with none of your spells or HD back, and possibly gain a level of exhaustion? Do you think that's fun for a significant percentage of people who play the game?
 

SkidAce

Adventurer
lol I"m done with this. A pet creature cannot be working properly if it literally cannot survive succeeding on saves on AOEs or traps past level 10 or 12, and cannot be regained without taking a bunch of time out of adventuring.
Familiars work because it takes 10 minutes and some gold, or a spell slot and some gold. Find Steed mounts work because they can survive some amount of danger, and can be regained with 10 minutes and a 2nd level spell slot.
Animal Companions cannot survive any amount of danger for half the level progression of the game, and regaining them relies on DM fiat to even be possible at all, and takes more time than either of those options. And does, at best, the same amount as either of those. Except you have to be much more careful with it. Their intentions are meaningless, as well. It doesn't change what the problem is, and how it can be fixed.
Why can't you Raise Dead on your creature, like you could a fallen party member?
 

DWChancellor

Kobold Enthusiast
What I find interesting about this pet conversation catching fire is that the ranger, and its pet, has been catching flak since release.

I mean, it isn't a new irritation right? I kind of wish they'd decided to errata the whole thing after the Unearthed Arcana alternates.
 

Sacrosanct

Slayer of Keraptis
It takes 8 hours to get the pet back. That’s also the same length as a long rest, right? Why are you saying it takes 16 hours? Man, your math skills are getting worse.

And if you think those beasts don’t exist in the undermountsin, then I don’t know what to tell you. Clearly you haven’t read a single undermountain adventure or book lol.
 

Elfcrusher

Adventurer
I hope 6e skips trying to make pet subclasses and just gives us a pet class. It is simple, the human/elf/dwarf/whatever is just there to 1) socially interact with other humanoids, 2) give the pet food/put on pet armor/any other services needed, and 3) hide while the fight is going on. The pet gets 100% of the combat power.
And if Warlord is a type of pet you can choose, it might be a win-win-win.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
What I find interesting about this pet conversation catching fire is that the ranger, and its pet, has been catching flak since release.

I mean, it isn't a new irritation right? I kind of wish they'd decided to errata the whole thing after the Unearthed Arcana alternates.
4e ranger with pet was ... slightly inadequate too bet it's even older too
 

Parmandur

Legend
What I find interesting about this pet conversation catching fire is that the ranger, and its pet, has been catching flak since release.

I mean, it isn't a new irritation right? I kind of wish they'd decided to errata the whole thing after the Unearthed Arcana alternates.
The biggest issue there is that a decided majority of people are happy with the Ranger right now. The minority report is significant, but most are satisfied. That, and the Subclass/Class work mechanically as is. Those two facts make a "fix" problematic.
 

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