D&D (2024) D&D 6th edition - What do you want to see?

[Nebulous]

They did nearly TPK when they first attacked Scarlet Moon Hall at level 3 & ran into multiple fireball wielding flame priests! Especially as I misread one flame guard as a flame priest causing them to be facing 3 priests, a fire elemental, 2 hellhounds & 2 flame guards in a single encounter...

How did that NOT kill a 3rd level party?? Three fireballs alone should be enough to waste them, not to mention all the other stuff. A fire elemental alone is CR 5 and resistant to non-magic.

 

[Nebulous]

I should have been clearer: at high levels, a group of optimized characters can crush encounters pretty easily. So yes, the game can become too easy/forgiving.

At low levels, however, character options are limited, and the first couple of levels in particular are rocket tag. On top of that, each of the published modules I've played had multiple unbalanced encounters. Horde of the Dragon Queen was notorious for that (because the makers didn't have the final monster stats for things like Berserkers/Bandits, IIRC). I'm currently DMing Princes of the Apocalypse, and an encounter that includes one CR 7 BBEG, an additional (invisible) CR 6 henchman, and another dozen CR 1/8 mooks is in an area recommended for a level 6 party. That's a TPK waiting to happen.

Yeah, at mid to high level, an optimized party is nearly impossible to drop in 5e unless you unleash something ridiculously OP, like 3 adult dragons.

I ran Princes too (loved it) but I can't recall which encounter you are referring to above.

Oddly, we would have had a TPK in Princes from an Invisible Stalker. The heroes had no way to target it, no faerie fire, and I had to cut corners just so they all didn't die in a random encounter.

 

[Hurin70]

I ran Princes too (loved it) but I can't recall which encounter you are referring to above.

Oddly, we would have had a TPK in Princes from an Invisible Stalker. The heroes had no way to target it, no faerie fire, and I had to cut corners just so they all didn't die in a random encounter.

That's the one. The Invisible Stalker is actually only the pet of one of the evil bosses (trying not to give spoilers here), but it alone can challenge a party, being a CR 6 itself. Then the boss is CR 7. Then there are 10 or 12 CR 1/8 mooks with magic weapons too. Oh, and the book states that if a certain CR 3 creature escaped from an earlier battle, it is here as well. And then, the icing on top is if things go bad, there is a chance the CR 7 boss can summon a CR 11 creature to finish the PCs off.

So, that makes for a level 6 party potentially facing:
--1 CR7 boss
--1 CR6 boss pet
--1 CR3 mob
--10 CR 1/8 mooks
--1 CR 11 summon

For a party of five adventurers, a 'deadly' encounter is 7,000 xp. This one is 9,000 without the summon, or 16,200 with him.

Lol!

 

[Nebulous]

That's the one. The Invisible Stalker is actually only the pet of one of the evil bosses (trying not to give spoilers here), but it alone can challenge a party, being a CR 6 itself. Then the boss is CR 7. Then there are 10 or 12 CR 1/8 mooks with magic weapons too. And the icing on top is if things go bad, there is a chance the CR 7 boss can summon a CR 11 creature to finish the PCs off.

Lol!

Ah ok, I think I know now which one you are talking about. The party developed a terrible phobia of stalkers

That's the one. The Invisible Stalker is actually only the pet of one of the evil bosses (trying not to give spoilers here), but it alone can challenge a party, being a CR 6 itself. Then the boss is CR 7. Then there are 10 or 12 CR 1/8 mooks with magic weapons too. Oh, and the book states that if a certain CR 6 creature escaped from an earlier battle, it is here as well. And then, the icing on top is if things go bad, there is a chance the CR 7 boss can summon a CR 11 creature to finish the PCs off.

So, that makes for a level 6 party potentially facing:
--1 CR7 boss
--2 CR6 subbosses
--10 CR 1/8 mooks
--1 CR 11 summon

Lol!

Ok, it's been so long since I ran that encounter I had to go back and look at it (probably 4 years ago). Yes, it can be tough. It does say the mooks are poisoned though, oddly, so that would put them all at disadvantage. It's the summoned thing that is the kicker. Take that away and the fight wouldn't be bad at all. For some reason in our campaign that summon didn't happen, I can't recall why now. But it was still pretty epic fight, and their first boss fight.

 

[S'mon]

How did that NOT kill a 3rd level party?? Three fireballs alone should be enough to waste them, not to mention all the other stuff. A fire elemental alone is CR 5 and resistant to non-magic.

I followed the given NPC tactics and the party only took one fireball AFAICR - from the priest who should have been a guard... It also helps we have 7 PCs, and they spread out. But it was still nearly a TPK.

R1 The party encountered 2 priests, one of whom recognised a PC, PCs rolled well on init. One priest starts praying to bring forth the elemental per adventure description, while the other is killed before he can cast. The guards started shooting.

R2 The 3rd priest & hounds approach (dash). 2nd priest retreats behind wicker giant. PCs continue attacks. A PC foolishly attacked the dormant fire elemental, bringing it forth.

R3 PCs kill 2nd priest, the 3rd priest gets in range and casts fireball on several PCs. Hell hounds start breathing. Fire elemental is attacking too. PCs are going down all over the place.

R4 PC Barbarian reaches & attacks the 3rd priest, who uses burning hands on him.

R5 PCs kill the 3rd priest. The hell hounds discorporate (not in the adventure, but then neither was the 3rd priest) . Fire elemental is killed. Remaining PCs grab their fallen and retreat, still under fire from the guards.

That's how I recall it, anyway. The group has 2 good healers (Cleric & Druid), and the Bear-barian and red dragonborn are fire resistant.

Some pics here - T1/M5/1491 DR session 3 Lvl 3 - Scarlet Moon Hall (XP 12+5=17)

Guy in red bottom left is Priest #3 being attacked by Barbarian. Priest #2 is the prone woman by the wicker giant, she must have been stunned or otherwise incapacitated I think (maybe by the Kensai?). And I see some shenanigans with a hell hound attacking the fire elemental, no doubt sorcery at work...

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Hmmm...this leads down some interesting paths.

In 4e a creature's bloodied condition was what it was, no variance. But here you're suggesting that each creature could have a variable range of possible bloodied conditions (which could include none at all) - cool!

And to take it a step further, there could be degrees of bloodied e.g. condition x kicks in when the creature is first damaged, condition y begins when the creature hits half h.p., condition z arises when the creature has less than 10% of its h.p. left - that sort of thing.

Complicated as hell, of course, and the space it'd all take up would make the MM bigger than the full-size Oxford Dictionary - but maybe worth a look as a per-campaign system for DMs who are so inclined.

Here, however, I'd put the brakes on; for a few reasons:

1. PCs generally have enough going for them already, and players have enough (or too much) to keep track of as it is without adding more.
2. It's inevitable, due to player-driven design pressures, that any and all PC bloodied conditions will end up being beneficial to the PC, resulting in nothing more than an overall power boost. That said, if PCs took a hit somehow because of becoming bloodied, or even if there was some sort of benefit-penalty trade-off, I could maybe sort of get behind it. Otherwise you could easily end up with PCs intentionally trying to get hurt (or hurting themselves!) in order to invoke their bloodied condition, which seems a bit ridiculous.

EDIT to add: with one exception - I'd say a Barbarian cannot rage unless it has taken damage within the last minute, which preserves various Barbarian tropes.

To make becoming bloodied carry any sort of penalty would, however, require a fundamental change in what seems to have become WotC's overall design philosophy (which largely eschews penalties) - I'm not holding my breath on that.

That is true for the PC's--have to rethink that.

For monsters and NPC's, some would have specific bloodied options (all Legendary monsters would have them), and the rest would involve some standard things (make barbarian-style reckless melee attacks, become frightened, etc) and some type specific things (demons with CR higher than 4 could sacrifice half their remaining hp's to summon a shadow demon [100% success], fey could teleport themselves and the nearest 5 creatures into the Feywild, dragon's breath weapon immediately recharges and it does maximum damage on a hit, but then the dragon can't use it again for 1 minute, oozes splatter, and my favorite, lycanthrope's bites now have the curse property (you need to prove your worth in combat to become a werewolf) but their immunity to non-silver or magic weapons becomes resistance, etc.). Having multiple bloodied conditions would be one of those dials that DM's could play with (jaded groups could have to deal with swingier combat).

 

[S'mon]

Just a note that some 5e NPCs & monsters do have bloodied status changes, eg the Champion NPC.

 

[Tony Vargas]

better wording on their encounters per day to exhaust a party baseline expectation so that folks do not think it is a requirement and know its just a benchmark for them making guesses.

Better wording on encounters per day to dispel the myths that it's not an important balance point between the long rest, short rest, and at-will primary classes determined by testing and design. Special attention towards dispelling the myth that tougher encounters use more of all resources from all classes in even mounts.

Heh.

Sometimes I think you're both right (or wrong, or there's not a difference between right and wrong in this context)...

Yeah, there's an idea (myth?) maybe even intent, that the game be played at a certain, specific pacing that could, on paper, balance hyper-versatile, high-peak-power, casters with the few benighted non-caster options, with an extra helping of complexity in the form of short rest-based classes on top of the traditional LFQW.

Is it /really/ the intent that anyone actually run adventures that grueling, though? Or is it just something to point to when someone complains that classes are radically imbalance ("they're not, your just doin' it wrong!")?
...IDK anymore....

 

[S'mon]

the few benighted non-caster options

I don't think I've ever had a 5e Barbarian player complain they were "benighted"!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't think I've ever had a 5e Barbarian player complain they were "benighted"!

That's a hurtful stereotype, that is.