D&D 5E D&D and who it's aimed at

[MGibster]

I don't miss chainmail bikini art but not all of the sanitizing has been good imho.

How much chainmail bikini art was in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D? The most egregious example I can remember is from 2nd edition featuring a woman, perhaps a sorceress, on her knees in front of a smoking brazier with her arms stretched upward (for the life of me I can't remember if that was in the DMG or another book). And while I can recall some armor featuring plunging necklines with battle action cleavage, I don't remember the cheesecake in AD&D to be particularly bad.

 

[Jahydin]

Then what are you saying?

How about this.

Hi, my name is Jahydin.

I've been gaming for 30 years now, but played the most when I was in college, so 3rd edition. The version I play the most now is 5th. I'm running Saltmarsh with a group of young players and having a pretty good time. My wife is also a DM and she's head over heals with the new Spelljammer setting, so will probably be a PC in that one.

Hopefully that gives some of my other comments some perspective, mainly that 5E is still a huge part of my life, and second, just because I don't like something and think it's "silly" doesn't mean I want it destroyed or that I look down on anyone who enjoys it. I'm looking forward to seeing what she does with it, even if I do eyeroll through the whole thing, haha.

Oh, I'm also running a Pathfinder 2E campaign (Strength of Thousands) about once a month and Castles and Crusades whenever friends want a game on the fly. My wife and I play Worlds Without Number when it's just the two of us. Probably my favorite OSR game at the moment.

 

[Malmuria]

How much chainmail bikini art was in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D? The most egregious example I can remember is from 2nd edition featuring a woman, perhaps a sorceress, on her knees in front of a smoking brazier with her arms stretched upward (for the life of me I can't remember if that was in the DMG or another book). And while I can recall some armor featuring plunging necklines with battle action cleavage, I don't remember the cheesecake in AD&D to be particularly bad.

If Clyde Caldwell went to KFC, he'd order the thigh...

I once took a trip to Wisconsin to spend a few days with artist Jeff Easley at his home. It was a great trip, and I got to see lots of outstanding artwork, but one thing that always stood out to me was when Jeff would discuss other artists he’d worked with over the years. As we talked about...

artofthegenre.com

 

[Zardnaar]

How much chainmail bikini art was in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D? The most egregious example I can remember is from 2nd edition featuring a woman, perhaps a sorceress, on her knees in front of a smoking brazier with her arms stretched upward (for the life of me I can't remember if that was in the DMG or another book). And while I can recall some armor featuring plunging necklines with battle action cleavage, I don't remember the cheesecake in AD&D to be particularly bad.

It's there but it's not on every product.

 

[MGibster]

If Clyde Caldwell went to KFC, he'd order the thigh...

I once took a trip to Wisconsin to spend a few days with artist Jeff Easley at his home. It was a great trip, and I got to see lots of outstanding artwork, but one thing that always stood out to me was when Jeff would discuss other artists he’d worked with over the years. As we talked about...

artofthegenre.com

Fair enough! A lot more than I remembered. At the very least, it's clear Mr. Caldwell has at least seen a naked woman before. So kudos to him I guess.

It's there but it's not on every product.

Yeah. I'm not sure how much is too much. The primary problem for me is when it's all cheesecake all the time. But the important thing is that I must now acknowledge that there was more cheesecake in 1st and 2nd edition than I remembered. Either that or get angry and start calling everyone snowflakes to deflect from my own shortcomings. I'll think about it and get back to y'all.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Talking about content geared for adults, there's a complete lack of adventuring parents!
Imagine dungeon diving with a child in tow!

 

[Hussar]

I wonder if by Disneyfied, people mean unbelievably successful media company that produces monster hits year in and year out, owning the most valuable IP in the world. One could only hope that D&D becomes more Disneyfied.

Then again, I just binge watched the Mandalorian, so, maybe I'm biased.

 

[MNblockhead]

No I'm specifically talking about kids. 12 year olds. New gamers being introduced to the hobby!

Well, my 12-year-old son and his group of 11-13 year old friends mostly make things up on the fly. They don't seem to have a lot of interest in 200-300 page adventures. I've got shelves of books and am happy to buy any adventure he and his group is interested in. All he's ever asked for are dice. They take turns DMing and mostly seem to make stuff up on the fly.

If he and his friends stay interested in the hobby, I suspect they'll get into the denser adventure books or more hardcore into creating their own campaigns.

From this gamer-dad's perspective, everything is geared mostly at late teens and above.

I think that the one thing that is missing, comparing my experiences in the 80s to kids now is short adventure modules. Browsing through the short, soft-cover modules, looking for an adventure to run over a just a few sessions, mixed with making up my own stories was pretty much how I remember the game in those days. But even then, I think I was doing most of that in high-school, not elementary or middle school. I think at 09-12, even a module may seem more like homework. At this stage they want to just get together an play. They don't seem interested in prep time, which is a big part of the enjoyment of the hobby for many older gamers.

I don't think WotC should be trying to write adventures for this age group. It is much more profitable to write adventures for older teens and adults that are published in USD 25-50 hardcovers. Instead, Hasbro should be making TV shows, movies, and creating terrain and minis priced for the kids-toy market.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

owning the most valuable IP in the world.

Two of the most valuable IPs in the world. The MCU and Star Wars. And regularly produces at least decent content for both.

If people mean "Marvel-ized" or "Star Wars-ified", as in "opened up to appeal to a bigger audience," that's accurate and absolutely a good thing. Two of my favorite franchises are owned by Disney. Disney has had some downright amazing cartoons in the past decade or so (Phineas and Ferb, Gravity Falls, the Owl House). Some of the best animated movies, too (Encanto, Moana, Tangled, Wreck it Ralph, etc). Disney making things for people of all ages is a good thing, but money-wise for their company, but also entertainment-wise for literally everyone else on the planet. That's just a good thing.

I sincerely don't think that D&D is being "Disneyfied" in the sense that a lot of people use it (making the game be for kids), I just think that the game is being opened up for all ages. And if that's what people mean by "sanitizing the hobby", that's fair, but also a bit pointless to say. Complaining about the hobby opening up for more people is just being a grumbly, gatekeeping grognard yelling at a cloud. If you're not complaining . . . then why the hell are you even talking about this? What's the point about heavily debating something that you agree is probably good for the hobby? I seriously don't get the point of this discussion.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I hate to raise it, but there is an elephant in the room that everyone is skirting around: gender.

The change isn't "Disneyfication" for a younger audience, its a shift away from testosterone-fuelled macho male focused imagery to something that can appeal to a wider range of genders.