D&D as a (good) MMORPG

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Party choice was crippling in EQ1 for a very long time and it's one of the reasons people fled it when WoW showed up. Some folks, like my dad, want to play a human ranger, even if it's a TERRIBLE choice in EQ1, and when they can't solo when no one's around, can't do anything meaningful and fun without a group and get passed over for the group because they're not part of the Holy Trinity of classes for groups, they get frustrated and stop playing.

D&D isn't quite this bad -- you can make a character of any class that's a pretty good generalist -- but those favored souls and druids are going to feel like second class citizens when it comes to plugging a healer into a group.

That said, if Second Life-style virtual spaces ever really take off, and the D&D MMORPG isn't viewed as a game so much as it's viewed as a fantasy world sim -- like Star Wars Galaxies originally was, even if it wasn't marketed as such -- it could work. But I think it's unlikely most publishers would want to distribute it and most venture capitalists would want to fund its creation.

 

[tzor]

OK as someone who was involved in the multi player psudo D&D game genre pre Everquest I think this question can be divided into three questions.

Can D&D d20 work as a viable system on the computer? Hard question to answer. I would say probably because unlike the P&P version you really can't argue with the DM (programmer) and his/her rule really is final.

Can a quantum round game work as a MMORPG? Yes, in fact turn based multi player games were the first, starting with Compuserve's Island of Kesmai. The problem is that all of these types of games were developed before smooth animation 3D systems but it's no different to put in a smooth based transition system to the model. One major problem is the question of micro/macro time frames. For example in everquest micro time was more or less real time (in terms of combat feel) but the day was only a few hours long. Breaking the 1:1 micro time frame ratio is certanly possible. If a supposed 6 second rounds takes 10 seconds game time no one is going to notice or care. Design the right interface and the d20 system could easily support a 1:1 micro time scale.

Would people accept a quantum round game MMORPG? Haven't a clue. (You got to know when you become an "old fart.") There is a strong influence on console games for the twitch model of MMORPG. We all know you can't have an online twitch game because of the delay times between server and client. We suspend disbelief when bizzare things happen as a result. Given this notion the notion that ones actions are in fact queued and will actually happen milliseconds or gasp even a second or two after being issued (depending on ones position in the initative) it is highly possible that people might get so used to it they might not even notice that it is even happening.

Knowing what I knew pre-Everquest I would say that it is completely possible for someone to create the killer MMORPG based on d20. On the other hand I would also say that it is highly unlikely to happen. But then again when I started playing Everquest I spent a lot of my time fishing. (Darn human not seeing in the dark. How long is it until day?)

 

[Doug McCrae]

Unfortunately, I am quite convinced that the market doesn't want this type of game, they would rather continue bashing the brains out of the same monster ad infinitum than try any real roleplaying.

My perception from playing WoW is that people are very tired of farming and don't enjoy it much. There should be scope for less repetitive gameplay, though what that might be, I'm not sure. Some type of advanced AI? I have no idea what you mean by 'real roleplaying'.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But then again when I started playing Everquest I spent a lot of my time fishing. (Darn human not seeing in the dark. How long is it until day?)

Heh, my gnome maxed fishing first as well, using it as a way to make money to buy scrolls to add to his spellbook.

I don't miss EQ1, but I still miss Ak'Anon.

My perception from playing WoW is that people are very tired of farming and don't enjoy it much. There should be scope for less repetitive gameplay, though what that might be, I'm not sure.

Part of the problem is that WoW is the less repetitive gameplay. After the REALLY repetitive play in previous games, WoW/LotRO is the state of the art in having the game not feel so grindy.

Unfortunately, even if you do PvP at the end game -- which features the most advanced AI available -- it still becomes repetitive eventually.

I have no idea what you mean by 'real roleplaying'.

Talking in character, doing things that aren't measured in game rewards but are done for roleplaying reasons, etc. These things exist on every game with a roleplaying server, but even there, such behavior is in the minority. My wife and I, who are the RP server of Silver Hand, do most of our roleplaying off-line.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

The points have pretty much been made by KM, but here it goes...


1) Yes, from 1-20 the D&D system isn't granular enough for a CRPG. The D&D exp progression is based on 14 or so encounters which is quite simply easy to whip through and even single player CRPGs based on third edition have had to adjust for that. The experience point and leveling mechanics have to be rewritten. I've run into suggestions that it's no big deal if people don't level often and gamers should enjoy the journey, not the destination. Guys, if you don't level what ends up happening is that loot turns into your leveling mechanic. This even happened in 1e and 2e, but it got dismissed as "munchkin" or "Monty Haul" (after the game show host Monte Hall) gaming. However that didn't make the problem go away. When you restrict leveling, gold and magic items take the place of levels.

2) Solo play is necessary for an MMORPG. You have to allow people to log in and play the game for an hour. Forming a group is not easy and even games that are friendly to solo play strive to make it easier. How would you feel if you only had a short time to play and the only cleric you could find was a jerk and a spaz? The strength an MMORPG has of having so many people playing at once to create a world is also a weakness. There's a lot of people I'd rather not game with out there.

And D&D does not do solo play well. Period. The rock-paper-scissors concept behind class balance works great when you have a team to back you up with different strengths and weaknesses. It blows if you're the only guy out there. NWN had custom generated dungeons that were built around the character's class and level, but computer generated content is going to be a little stale and generic by nature.

3) One of the things I think was great about the development of 3e was that the game was balance around five encounters or what a typical group might reasonably expect to do in a typical game session. The rest model was adapted for D&D online and again: kudos to the designers. But for an open ended game it puts the kibosh on random outdoor encounters and restricts players to dungeons.

4) And boring outdoor travel is just as well. The D&D travel spells and concealment spells would have to be reworked (see KM's point that if you're going to do all this re-engineering why not just use an original ruleset). 1 minute of invisibility is a long time in an MMORPG. The monk speed bonus is awesome. Flight is awesome. Horses -- I'm not making this up folks -- are awesome. Being able to double your movement speed is great and if you've only played pen and paper you really can't appreciate what I'm talking about because this kind of thing is abstracted for you. In an MMORPG you have to travel every step of the way. On the positive side, that's good immersion. On the negative side, walking is dang boring. Which is why there are random outdoor encounters and quests ... which remember we can't have because we never know when the PCs are going to rest.

5) The craft skill system in D&D, quite frankly, barely cuts it for pen and paper gaming. This limits player activity to killing monsters and player-versus-player combat.

6) The D&D economy is very linear. Even in a high roleplay, open ended D&D game the economy is still based on the PCs going through adventures once and only once. Nothing is really repeatable and that assumption must exist in an MMORPG. How many Hands of Vecna or Blue Crystal Staffs do you want in the game? One? And the first guy who gets it is the only one who could ever have it? This is to say nothing of gold. Honestly, I have a hard time seeing how a D&D MMORPG could prevent 3rd level guys from having +4 swords after the game server had been up for awhile. Or, on the other extreme, having gold be all but worthless. The linear D&D economy all but mandates one of those two directions.




What I like about D&D is that I have a game that's all about me and my buddies. What I like about MMORPGs is that I can arbitrarily play from 9:37 to 11:04 on a Tuesday night. These are very different gaming needs and they require very different games.

 

[DreadArchon]

I play pen-and-paper RPG's to do all the stuff I can't do in a piece of computer software. So as far as I'm concerned, the D&D experience de facto can't adequately be simulated in an MMORPG environment.

Of course; but that an MMO couldn't reproduce D&D does not necessarily mean that D&D would make a bad MMO. A lot of this--druid balance VS fighter balance, for example--doesn't need guessing and hypotheticals. We know, from NWN, that it works fine. A Druid doesn't get seven new shapes every time a book is released, nor can he turn into an ape and put all of his gear back on to get around restrictions; a Wizard can't fabricate a mountainside into tens of thousands of gold worth of masterwork items in the course of a day; a Hulking Hurler can't be a centaur and get Shrink Item cast on big lead balls and start breaking planets; a Kobold can't cast Ice Assassin and make himself into a god. Most exploits simply aren't programmed in.

Again, though, I'm not really qualified to say whether it would be economically viable.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

OK, "blue crystal staff" just brought back unwelcome EQ1 flashbacks. I think I passed out for a while there and I definitely soiled myself.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I think I passed out for a while there and I definitely soiled myself.

Welcome to my world.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I think a D&D MMO would be phenomenally successful. But in order to be successful, it has to not try to be WoW.

That is, it shouldn't pretend to have real-time 3-d combat. Instead, they should take a page from that new Pirates of the Burning Sea game from Flying Lab. You build your character and interact socially via the familiar 3-d interface of WoW and other games. But when it comes time to adventure, it's all instanced dungeons and turn-based combat.

That's right, turn-based. Anyone who thinks gamers won't tolerate turn based RPG combat should look up a little-known franchise called Final Fantasy. Or look at the crazy success of turn-based tabletop games like Catan and Carcassone on Xbox Live.

And I don't think the level cap matters. In fact, I'd suggest you limit the game to 12th level, and delay progression in such a way that a typical player won't cap until after three months of play. Introduce mid-level perks and bumps in the form of items, both mundane and magical. Maybe accelerate the feat system to 2 feats per level, instead of 1 per 3 levels. Maybe such a system would finally see people taking feats like "athletic".

tl;dr: D&D as an MMO would work, but only if you embrace D&D's quirks and don't try to make a WoW clone.

-z

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You know what would work as a parallel advancement system for D&D? Affiliations. They're a bit mechanical for some folks tabletop games, but they'd fit in well with an MMO.