D&D as a (good) MMORPG

[Hussar]

Just a point about class equality.

Look at City of Heroes. There is no equality between the classes. Or at least very, very little. Some combinations are better in every way than others. Blaster Tank pretty much owns the game. But, that's not the point. City of Heroes managed to be very popular even though you have this large disparity. Perhaps D&D could move in this direction?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'd argue that Co* is held back, financially, by its adherence to EQ1 tropes. (Seriously, how many comic book characters are there that are healers? A dozen, tops? That shouldn't be a primary archetype in a supers game.) D&D is arguably too far in this direction. If you can't do X without Class Y, the game grinds to a halt while you find someone you can put up with who plays Class Y. As EQ1 vets can tell you (especially the ones NOT playing enchanters or clerics), that's not a lot of fun.

(And yes, Co* is finally held back: In all the years since its release, the developers haven't added a new server since the first week of CoH. Even marginally successful MMORPGs have added more servers than that.)

 

[Moon-Lancer]

d&d wont make a good online rpg. It has too much baggage. It will just end up being another online rpg with a d&d teeshirt (as already demonstrated). You will have some people angry because this changed or that changed to make it into a balanced game.

What needs to be done is make a game that embodies its sprite, its soul and build a system that makes it feel like d&d but functions in a game world.

by that i don't mean another fantasy game but one that has d&d in mind but is not afraid to change in order to make it work better as a video game.

It must never forget one word. Adventure.

sorry for being vague. I may try to explain what i mean later.

biggusgeekus, i liked alot of what you said in post 15. I think you really understand the problems of what a d&d online game would go through.

 

[Herobizkit]

Having played DDO, I can say that I prefer WoW.

Now, this isn't the fault of the system itself. The character customization is far superior to WoW and is an example of an excellent ruleset transition from PnP to MMORPG.

I found, however, that the game itself was too "arcade-y"; attacking became more like button-mashing than the gentler "wait time" between attacks on WoW, and even DDO's auto-attack has your character flailing madly until your enemy is dead. I also didn't care for the overall look of the text and menus, and I really really hated that the Auction House had no means of sorting their listings by any other means than type.

Two key points about MMORPG's:
- They are so popular because a DM is NOT required; anyone can play at any time, make groups and perform quests without needing to find babysitters, reschedule work, or any other distractions.
- You get out of a MMORPG what you put into it. If you find a group of players who WANT to RP, you can find them. WoW has servers allegedly dedicated to RP, but from my limited experience there aren't that many. I did attend a fireside chat in the first inn I encountered, however, and it was entertaining.

 

[GlassJaw]

The biggest challenge in bring traditional D&D to the MMO medium is turn-based vs real-time combat. Turn-based just doesn't work in the MMO environment.

Overall, Turbine did a decent job with transitioning D&D's turn-based system to real-time but it certainly plays quite differently.

 

[GlassJaw]

They were based on the competition (what does it offer that WoW doesn't?)

How much did you play DDO? If you think it was based on WoW, I would guess not that much.

 

[Ibram]

I've played DDO, NWN, and currently play WoW.

Thought the d20 system is a good foundation for a computer game it doesn't really fit the bill. It is TO bound by the tabletop environment for which it was created, and cannot take advantage of the flexibility allowed by a computer (which can take care of a huge amount of book-keeping).

NWN: A fun game, I had a great time playing it, but advancement was mostly tied to groups. Only a few classes (fighters, paladins, barbarians) could 'solo' content after a certain point. But the NWN was never developed as an MMORPG, rather it allowed a person to build an adventure online and let others run through it. Modules could be built and then shared among different groups. But without a group of players there wasn't much to do (aside from play with the world builder, which was fun).

DDO: Not very fun at all. In may ways it was like NWN without the world editor. Without a group it was impossible (not just difficult like in NWN) to adventure w/o a group, add in the fact that advancement was done quite slowly (the rogue I played never got above a +1 BaB) made for a very frustrating experience. It did have its strong points, as the world had more interactivity then other MMORPGs I've played, but that wasn't really a factor when I spent 45min standing around looking for a group (kinda like sitting in rush-hour traffic).

WoW: I've been playing since launch, and have characters in every race and class (at different levels). The game is a far more complicated version of D&D, with the computer playing the part of book-keeper. Looking at my lvl 70 Warrior it would be a nightmare to try and run that character in a tabletop environment (a large number of abilities have a chance to happen when something else happens) not to mention all the buff/de-buff elements within the game. The most important aspect is that I can hop on and play for a few hours without worrying about getting a group (my warrior is running out of solo content, so I play my alts). This is where the game really differs from D&D, and where D&D could not emulate.

What am I saying? Well, NWN is an online 3-D D&D game... WoW is an online MMORPG descended from D&D... DDO is the failed attempt at making traditional D&D into something that its not, an MMORPG.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

- You get out of a MMORPG what you put into it. If you find a group of players who WANT to RP, you can find them. WoW has servers allegedly dedicated to RP, but from my limited experience there aren't that many. I did attend a fireside chat in the first inn I encountered, however, and it was entertaining.

If you still want RP, Silver Hand has a good amount of scheduled events, listed on the server board. (Ignore the raiding and PVP drama stuff.) I've also found it to be very open to RP in /say and /yell -- General chat is a wasteland that I've kept off since the beginning.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

WoW: I've been playing since launch, and have characters in every race and class (at different levels). The game is a far more complicated version of D&D, with the computer playing the part of book-keeper. Looking at my lvl 70 Warrior it would be a nightmare to try and run that character in a tabletop environment (a large number of abilities have a chance to happen when something else happens) not to mention all the buff/de-buff elements within the game. The most important aspect is that I can hop on and play for a few hours without worrying about getting a group (my warrior is running out of solo content, so I play my alts). This is where the game really differs from D&D, and where D&D could not emulate.

I figure a level 70 WoW character is about a level 35 D&D character with access to all sorts of crazy feat chains. My dwarf hunter sure doesn't feel like even a level 20 ranger.

 

[Ibram]

I figure a level 70 WoW character is about a level 35 D&D character with access to all sorts of crazy feat chains. My dwarf hunter sure doesn't feel like even a level 20 ranger.

Before the expansion I figured that every 3 levels in WoW was approximately 1 level in D&D (lvl 60 WoW = lvl 20 D&D). So another 10 lvls would be 22-25 in D&D. The complexity of the character is far beyond what can be done in pen and paper game though...

btw... we have spell check now?