Right, but the player always gets to pay 20% less than that price. They don’t have to convince the seller to lower their price. They just get a discount automatically. Anyone else who wants a discount has to actually go through the action resolution process to get one.
Yes. Other players have to go through the resolution process because they don't have the feat. More on this below.
But that explanation only makes sense if you’re buying from a store that you supply.
If the character is approaching the merchant as another crafter/merchant then a discount as a reseller makes sense. As long as the merchant is not dipping to deeply into their profit margin then extra discounted sales can increase cash flow in this way.
It's normal to give resellers a discount to move more product.
Which is ok. Just ban that feat.
I just wanted to point out that
@Charlaquin is clearly capable of making a decision like that but the option to ban or change a rule doesn't invalidate their opinion as to why they would do so in the first place. We can still discuss the rules and why we might want to change them.
But the feature doesn’t require them to negotiate. They just get the discount, no questions asked.
I disagree with this statement. The DDB article changed the wording but I think the UA version is likely to be correct. But where I disagree is in that the feature doesn't require the character to negotiate.
The UA version stated the discount was "You are adept at crafting things and
bargaining with merchants..."
This is what leads to the purchasing discount. The fact that a roll is not required is irrelevant. Rolling is what
players do to resolve mechanics and has nothing to do with what the
character is doing to create that action. Other players might need to make a persuasion check to get a discount but the feat automatically succeeds in that check with no roll required.
Circumstances that don't require a roll is very much a part of the DM action resolution process. Either it's a given or it's impossible remove the roll and this feature makes the result a given. I don't see this as any different from any other roll that might be a given.
Getting the shovel is not what’s at issue. Getting to pay less for the shovel than anyone else would have to is the issue.
But anyone else can make a check to persuade the shop keeper to give them a deal on the shovel. Anyone else is capable of achieving a similar effect.
But even if you assume there’s an unstated attempt to haggle being made...
This isn't an assumption. The feat states specifically that the character is adept at bargaining.
the feature just grants automatic success on that attempt in literally all circumstances. There’s no room for a struggling vendor who just can’t afford to lower his prices any further, or a merchant who thinks the party are a bunch of jerks and isn’t interested in giving them a deal. You can always ask for a discount and you always get it.
At this point the action might have switched to impossible from the DM's perspective. But why? Do you have failing shops on the verge of collapse to the point they cannot afford a discount as the norm in your campaigns? Or is the typical shop successful in areas where they can sell good to adventurers?
Either way, a discount on shovels still doesn't mean there are any shovels in the shop to buy. The DM can make scenarios like you suggested as exceptions to the rule at times.
The shopkeeper who cannot afford a discount doesn't seem like an issue. They seem like a specific choice by the DM for a specific reason and therefore become a plot hook. If the shop is in trouble then that's a potential adventure or side quest for the character who gains that discount after completion. It's okay to make special cases.
No, what’s unique about it is that it dictates NPC behavior.
So does persuade, intimidate, or deception. Performance can alter moods and change outcomes of those checks. Heck, even making a perception check against a hidden opponent who notices will change their behaviour.
If my character walks out into the street and throws a rock at an NPC minding their own business that can change their behaviour.
I would argue that rolling a die is irrelevant to a character's influence on NPC's through the actions of that character. Those actions will have repercussions regardless of being automatic or not. This this case the bargaining power that comes with the feat seems to have a positive repercussion in the UA version.
Hope my perspective gives some food for thought.
