D&D Beyond Cancellations Changed WotCs Plans

Gizmodo has revealed that the partial OGL v1.1 walkback yesterday was in response to the fan campaign to cancel D&D Beyond subscriptions, with "five digits" worth of cancellations. However, the site also reveals that management at the company believed that fans were overreating and that it would all be forgotten in a few months.

In order to delete a D&D Beyond account entirely, users are funneled into a support system that asks them to submit tickets to be handled by customer service: Sources from inside Wizards of the Coast confirm that earlier this week there were “five digits” worth of complaining tickets in the system. Both moderation and internal management of the issues have been “a mess,” they said, partially due to the fact that WotC has recently downsized the D&D Beyond support team.

Yesterday's walkback removed the royalties from the license, but still 'de-authorized' the OGL v1.0a, something which may or may not be legally possible, depending on who you ask.

Cancelled D&D Beyond Subscriptions Forced Hasbro's Hand

Swift consumer action prompted Dungeons & Dragons publisher Wizards of the Coast to to scrap licensing updates. The players aren't done yet.

gizmodo.com

 

[raniE]

That sounds a lot more a lifestyle issue than anything else. I don't mean that in a mean way, but most people have periods in their lives when the practical difficulties of organising RPGs are more or less significant.

On the other hand, I've never seen an edition change wipe out a group. Either they go with the new edition or they don't, tends to be the reaction. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't think it's common. Similarly with RPG changes - the only times I've seen those go wrong are when the DM is the only person who wants to change, and he wants to change to something totally different in style and clunk-as-heck in mechanics.

I do think 5E will lose some people over time (more with this idiocy disenchanting people re: D&D), because the huge bulk of 5E's players are in 15-29 age range, which is the easiest range to play D&D in until you get into what, your mid-40s or later? As more and more of those people hit their 30s, where they're having to deal with kids and so on, but where those kids are far too young to play RPGs with, I think there will be a dip.

I’ve seen lots of things wipe gaming groups, and almost every time, some of the members didn’t come back, at least not for a time. There’s always other things to do, you have to really prioritize RPGs to play them, and that calculation can change in an instant when something changes, like a certain person leaving the game, getting news that WorC is evil etc. I think the edition change will have a larger impact on D&D this time because a lot of the new players don’t expect it and won’t know how to roll with it, but more importantly because of the emphasis on online tools. If it’s all “wait, we play with D&D Beyond and now it’s saying I need to buy this new book to play, what the hell?” Then yeah, that’s going to lose some players. People who play at a table with books? Less affected by far. And people who just don’t want to play D&D anymore because of the current issues can just walk away, especially if they were never die-hards.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I’ve seen lots of things wipe gaming groups, and almost every time, some of the members didn’t come back, at least not for a time.

To me, anything were even some of the people come back, even if it takes a while, isn't a TPK, y'know?

If it’s all “wait, we play with D&D Beyond and now it’s saying I need to buy this new book to play, what the hell?”

????

Have you not used Beyond? You're describing an impossible situation, essentially. If you're using Beyond, the only person who "needs" the new PHB is the DM, because you share it with the players, and the DM will probably have bought a number of books on Beyond. It's literally like you own the book on Beyond, if it's shared with you - it's actually genuinely hard to work out what's shared and what you actually own, at times lol.

It's real-world players who might actually need to buy another book themselves.

People who play at a table with books? Less affected by far.

That literally doesn't make any sense. I can only assume you don't use Beyond, or your DM is really weird has intentionally turned off content sharing.

 

[deganawida]

I've been speaking with a friend of mine, who cancelled his master tier account over this.

One thing that he keeps circling back to is that this is all about the VTT, but not in the way that I think has been expressed here.

He argues that the lockdown on 3PP is aimed at the future of the VTT, as well as the restriction on content.

His two main points:

First, that Hasbro will not want 3PP producing virtual minis or animations for DDB. He specifically mentioned CR here; could you imagine how much money Matt Mercer could make by providing voice sets for DDB minis?

Second, that Hasbro has the morality clause in order to head off ERP and bad-acting in the VTT. He pointed out to me that porn is a very successful industry, and that there is a contingent of bard players who try to seduce anything and everything as a lark (what my wife calls, "Brothels & Bards"), and that Hasbro is looking forward in order to cut that off at the pass.

What is interesting about these two points to me is that the show a future path where all play is moderated via DDB and held there, where D&D goes from being a toolkit to play with your friends, to a virtual experience with content moderation and delivery. DM-as-service could be a real thing, if his conclusions are correct, and matchmaking would soon follow, akin to online shooters.

If that is the case, and I am not saying that it is, then "Dungeons & Dragons" as we have known it and played it is truly dead. What we will have left is something more akin to MtG Arena (or whatever that video game I tried out on Steam 8 years ago was), and creative problem solving in games will be diminished due to not being programmed in DDB's VTT.

Again, I am not saying that is the case, but he made a compelling argument and presented things to me which I had not considered, which is a very long-term view of Hasbro migrating to a complete live-service model of D&D.

 

[Ibrandul]

I've been speaking with a friend of mine, who cancelled his master tier account over this.

One thing that he keeps circling back to is that this is all about the VTT, but not in the way that I think has been expressed here.

He argues that the lockdown on 3PP is aimed at the future of the VTT, as well as the restriction on content.

His two main points:

First, that Hasbro will not want 3PP producing virtual minis or animations for DDB. He specifically mentioned CR here; could you imagine how much money Matt Mercer could make by providing voice sets for DDB minis?

Second, that Hasbro has the morality clause in order to head off ERP and bad-acting in the VTT. He pointed out to me that porn is a very successful industry, and that there is a contingent of bard players who try to seduce anything and everything as a lark (what my wife calls, "Brothels & Bards"), and that Hasbro is looking forward in order to cut that off at the pass.

What is interesting about these two points to me is that the show a future path where all play is moderated via DDB and held there, where D&D goes from being a toolkit to play with your friends, to a virtual experience with content moderation and delivery. DM-as-service could be a real thing, if his conclusions are correct, and matchmaking would soon follow, akin to online shooters.

If that is the case, and I am not saying that it is, then "Dungeons & Dragons" as we have known it and played it is truly dead. What we will have left is something more akin to MtG Arena (or whatever that video game I tried out on Steam 8 years ago was), and creative problem solving in games will be diminished due to not being programmed in DDB's VTT.

Again, I am not saying that is the case, but he made a compelling argument and presented things to me which I had not considered, which is a very long-term view of Hasbro migrating to a complete live-service model of D&D.

I think this is all entirely correct but isn't really impacted by the OGL at all. Once Hasbro's VTT is running they can set whatever terms they like for what's allowed on it without bringing the OGL into it. If that weren't the case, they never would have promised (in their statement on Friday) that VTT-uses would remain unaffected by the OGL update.

But this is partly about VTTs, I think: their statement doesn't say VTTs will remain unaffected, only VTT-uses.

So they're promising not to limit what you can do on a VTT via the OGL—but they will try to go after VTT platforms themselves that run D&D natively without signing on to OGL 2.0. Most (not all) of the major VTTs have struck individual agreements with WotC, but none of these is likely to ever be renewed once WotC's VTT is active.

 

[Composer99]

I've been speaking with a friend of mine, who cancelled his master tier account over this.

One thing that he keeps circling back to is that this is all about the VTT, but not in the way that I think has been expressed here.

He argues that the lockdown on 3PP is aimed at the future of the VTT, as well as the restriction on content.

His two main points:

First, that Hasbro will not want 3PP producing virtual minis or animations for DDB. He specifically mentioned CR here; could you imagine how much money Matt Mercer could make by providing voice sets for DDB minis?

Second, that Hasbro has the morality clause in order to head off ERP and bad-acting in the VTT. He pointed out to me that porn is a very successful industry, and that there is a contingent of bard players who try to seduce anything and everything as a lark (what my wife calls, "Brothels & Bards"), and that Hasbro is looking forward in order to cut that off at the pass.

What is interesting about these two points to me is that the show a future path where all play is moderated via DDB and held there, where D&D goes from being a toolkit to play with your friends, to a virtual experience with content moderation and delivery. DM-as-service could be a real thing, if his conclusions are correct, and matchmaking would soon follow, akin to online shooters.

If that is the case, and I am not saying that it is, then "Dungeons & Dragons" as we have known it and played it is truly dead. What we will have left is something more akin to MtG Arena (or whatever that video game I tried out on Steam 8 years ago was), and creative problem solving in games will be diminished due to not being programmed in DDB's VTT.

Again, I am not saying that is the case, but he made a compelling argument and presented things to me which I had not considered, which is a very long-term view of Hasbro migrating to a complete live-service model of D&D.

I think the reason that angle hasn't come up much in discussion here is because controlling prospective 3pp or homebrew content on the VTT doesn't require trying to de-authorise the OGL, it just requires that users and 3pps accept a different licence - not unlike the terms for posting content on DMs Guild.

 

[Nikosandros]

I think the reason that angle hasn't come up much in discussion here is because controlling prospective 3pp or homebrew content on the VTT doesn't require trying to de-authorise the OGL, it just requires that users and 3pps accept a different licence - not unlike the terms for posting content on DMs Guild.

Yes, they can wall-off their new VTT as much as they like, but leave the OGL 1.0 alone!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The fact that this red herring has derailed so many discussions about WotC's de facto licence-grab shows that it was clearly a good point with which to disguise their non-retraction.

I wish this thought process would go away. I don't care WHY they do things. If they stop people from making a D&D/3pp/D20 G* word book I am happy. If they stop people from making a D&D/3pp/D20 'final solution' source book I am happy.

May it be they did 1 thing good so they could 'hide' 7 wrong... sure, but the fact that when people say "THIS 1 thing is good" people act like they are saying all of the things are and fight against it is insane.

I also feel like saying things like "I don't understand why you are for no hate speech" is pretty gas lilting

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think some certainly are. D&D group collapses because some people say “I’m not playing any Hasbro stuff” and someone else says “I don’t want to learn another game”

Very skeptical.

People tend to drop out of D&D or RPGs due to life/lifestyle changes, not because someone didn't want to play a specific game.

if groups do break up there is at least a chance that it breaks into 2 groups... it still messes up friendsips

 

[raniE]

To me, anything were even some of the people come back, even if it takes a while, isn't a TPK, y'know?

????

Have you not used Beyond? You're describing an impossible situation, essentially. If you're using Beyond, the only person who "needs" the new PHB is the DM, because you share it with the players, and the DM will probably have bought a number of books on Beyond. It's literally like you own the book on Beyond, if it's shared with you - it's actually genuinely hard to work out what's shared and what you actually own, at times lol.

Which only applies to 5e stuff. Suddenly it’s new edition time and WotC are, as is obvious, complete morons so suddenly you need to upgrade to the new edition book to play. Sure, only one person needs to buy the new books, but that one person still has to do it.

It's real-world players who might actually need to buy another book themselves.

Only if they actually want to switch to the new game. Not switching a physical game is going to be much easier than not switching to the new edition on WotC’s official platform.

That literally doesn't make any sense. I can only assume you don't use Beyond, or your DM is really weird has intentionally turned off content sharing.

Of course it does. The GM is still a player, and now they have to purchase a bunch of new stuff.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Which only applies to 5e stuff. Suddenly it’s new edition time and WotC are, as is obvious, complete morons so suddenly you need to upgrade to the new edition book to play. Sure, only one person needs to buy the new books, but that one person still has to do it.

I don't think that's a real issue, and more to the point, it's definitely less of an issue for Beyond people than physical people.

Only if they actually want to switch to the new game. Not switching a physical game is going to be much easier than not switching to the new edition on WotC’s official platform.

This seems like retcon lol and doesn't really make sense with what you're arguing.

Of course it does. The GM is still a player, and now they have to purchase a bunch of new stuff.

I don't think people are going to balk hugely at buying new books that they've had essentially a 2-year warning about and that they aren't hard-required to buy. It's not like Beyond is just going to lock you out because you don't have 1D&D.

 

[raniE]

I don't think that's a real issue, and more to the point, it's definitely less of an issue for Beyond people than physical people.

Not at all, because it is impossible for WotC to push an update that changes or removes my physical books. Not so with digital content.

This seems like retcon lol and doesn't really make sense with what you're arguing.

No it is not a retcon and yes it does. People using physical books only will have a far easier time just continuing with their physical books than those in the digital ecosystem, as WotC can’t affect physical books that are already out there.

I don't think people are going to balk hugely at buying new books that they've had essentially a 2-year warning about and that they aren't hard-required to buy. It's not like Beyond is just going to lock you out because you don't have 1D&D.

We don’t know that. I think it’s not unlikely. Would it be stupid? Yes of course, but that clearly isn’t stopping WotC. And then people will get angry that they have to buy the new books to keep using D&D Beyond.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not at all, because it is impossible for WotC to push an update that changes or removes my physical books. Not so with digital content.

This seems like a very silly objection. WotC is not going to steal your books, not even on Beyond. That's the sort of thing that triggers successful class-action lawsuits and makes the EU courts sit up and rub their hands with glee.

People using physical books only will have a far easier time just continuing with their physical books than those in the digital ecosystem, as WotC can’t affect physical books that are already out there.

I guess if you think WotC are going to steal your books on Beyond I can see this attitude lol.

We don’t know that. I think it’s not unlikely. Would it be stupid? Yes of course, but that clearly isn’t stopping WotC. And then people will get angry that they have to buy the new books to keep using D&D Beyond.

I think it's incredibly unlikely. Because it would just straight-up kill 1D&D before it was even born.

Even the people who are saying this OGL stuff is fine, they don't care, they're still excited for 1D&D would be like "To hell with this!" at that point. Some have said as much.

There's stupid, and then there's suicidal. WotC are clearly stupid, but what you're suggesting they will do here goes so far beyond stupidity that it's in a whole different ballpark. People won't just "get angry", they'll start flipping cars and setting them on fire. It would be edition over. Possibly D&D over for a few years. Whichever company got the highest-quality, prettiest, best-advertised ORC-enabled 5E clone out would start absolutely MINTING it mate. They'd probably get into high tens or even low hundreds of millions in sales revenue. Honestly if I was Paizo I'd probably be developing a 5E clone as Pathfinder spin-off right now just on the incredibly low off-chance WotC does something this dumb.

Much more likely is a reverse of the scenario, where WotC have some kind of incentivization of changing to 1D&D, like making it so the 1D&D PHB is part of the Master-level sub (as long as you keep subscribing).

Have you actually used Beyond btw?

 

[raniE]

This seems like a very silly objection. WotC is not going to steal your books, not even on Beyond. That's the sort of thing that triggers successful class-action lawsuits and makes the EU courts sit up and rub their hands with glee.

I guess if you think WotC are going to steal your books on Beyond I can see this attitude lol.

I think it's incredibly unlikely. Because it would just straight-up kill 1D&D before it was even born.

Even the people who are saying this OGL stuff is fine, they don't care, they're still excited for 1D&D would be like "To hell with this!" at that point. Some have said as much.

There's stupid, and then there's suicidal. WotC are clearly stupid, but what you're suggesting they will do here goes so far beyond stupidity that it's in a whole different ballpark. People won't just "get angry", they'll start flipping cars and setting them on fire. It would be edition over. Possibly D&D over for a few years. Whichever company got the highest-quality, prettiest, best-advertised ORC-enabled 5E clone out would start absolutely MINTING it mate. They'd probably get into high tens or even low hundreds of millions in sales revenue. Honestly if I was Paizo I'd probably be developing a 5E clone as Pathfinder spin-off right now just on the incredibly low off-chance WotC does something this dumb.

Much more likely is a reverse of the scenario, where WotC have some kind of incentivization of changing to 1D&D, like making it so the 1D&D PHB is part of the Master-level sub (as long as you keep subscribing).

Hasbro management don’t understand TTRPGs. So I don’t see them being able to gauge if a move is smart or stupid or suicidal.

Have you actually used Beyond btw?

Yes, but I never really got into it. Had a DM who shared all the books, but I already owned them in paper and preferred to use a paper character sheet. I was the only one in that group not running a character on paper, if I recall correctly. Later I ran a game which included that guy as a player, so we still had D&D Beyond support for the campaign, but only two players used it while three (plus me) were mostly paper based.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Hasbro management don’t understand TTRPGs. So I don’t see them being able to gauge if a move is smart or stupid or suicidal.

Well, I guess we'll find out lol.

I just don't think they're quite that dumb, because that's the sort of thing that's dumb even outside TTRPGs.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This seems like a very silly objection. WotC is not going to steal your books, not even on Beyond. That's the sort of thing that triggers successful class-action lawsuits and makes the EU courts sit up and rub their hands with glee.

I guess if you think WotC are going to steal your books on Beyond I can see this attitude lol.

they did before.

So I LOVE D&D 4e. I still have every book. I also have pages of Errata I printed (from work so he he) I still use them and drop abilities and magic items into my games (and when I don't tell PF players where they are from they think they are AWESOME).
However my 2 buddies both only bought the PHB 1 then subscribed to get all the content in the compendium and character builder. One of them (lets call her Linda) used to make fun of me for 'wasting money and room'
Now I had a sub too, don't get me wrong.
So when we were still playing 4e Linda was the first to notice a problem. She had to borrow my books when the servers went down. By the last game we played of 4e (about 2017ish) she was going nuts trying to make and update characters. She (and our other buddy lets call him ROss) had to come over and use my books and printouts, or they couldn't make anything they didn't own the books for.

Now back then I didn't have my current level of smartphone. Right now I can go to my 'notes' and scan a page or two and email it to them. However back then, it was blurry pics or me typing it out or them coming to look.

so the reason I bring this up is Ross is in my current 5e game, and he sometimes asks when I drop things in (like say leading the charge) "Hey can I come over and see the original version" that is how I KNOW I can just scan my PHB and and errata and email it.
Linda however doesn't play 5e however she also doesn't want to buy 4e pdfs for full price and that is what she wants to play/run... so she sometiem asks if she could come 'steal' my books... and I remind her everytime " you mean those wastes of money and space?"

 

[Ulfgeir]

As I was the one using causal players at the start of this mini echange, maybe I should clarify what I meant. I intended it to mean consumers that are not very into looking at the "meta" of what is going on aroubd the game. They can be heavy spenders, but their purchase decissions is more formed by "wow, this looks cool" or "this seem practical", than any deeper dive into the merits of the various products.

For this category a simple badge is of immense value, as they then know at a glance they got something matching their game, and not for instance a supplement for some retroclone that is unusable at your table. (My dad once bought Drakar och Demoner assuming it was a D&D translation)

Well, to be fair in that case, the name Drakar och Demoner was as far as I understand it EXPLICITLY chosen to make people think it was Dungeons & Dragons...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

they did before.

????

That's an interesting story and I liked it lol but doesn't show WotC stealing any books.

I was like Linda myself. I barely had any 4E books once the DDI got going. I had like, the core, PHB2 & 3, DMG2, and the Essentials books, and I think that's it.

But I was well aware during that time, that, if/when the DDI went down, I wouldn't have any books lol. I didn't mind because it was a subscription service and I was making a choice. Whereas with Beyond, the books are each a specific purchase. You don't need the subscription to access them, it just enables you to share them with others. The only thing I was mad about when it finally got turned off was that I wasn't able to get back in to retrieve our characters (despite the free grace period allowed, I couldn't get my PW to reset). Luckily I found we'd PDF'd them all years ago and I'd just forgotten, they were sitting on my Google drive.

Now, if Beyond ever deletes any of my books, or stops me accessing them, that'd be stealing my books. My expectation is, though, that WotC will probably just make all the books I own available as PDFs for download if/when they decide to shut down Beyond. And if they don't, well, I'll see them in small claims court, because either they'll turn up and it'll cost them more than I spent on all the books and then some just for the solicitor and barrister's time, even if I somehow lose, or much more likely I'll get nicer order for however much money those books cost, which I can then demand WotC pay lest I send the bailiffs round.

 

[raniE]

Well, I guess we'll find out lol.

I just don't think they're quite that dumb, because that's the sort of thing that's dumb even outside TTRPGs.

I mean, if you're right and they're not quite that dumb, then you are absolutely right that this won't hurt those newly joined players financially much if at all. I still think that just the experience of an edition change will induce some to abandon the game, especially when combined with bad PR, but it won't be as bad. I just have little faith in WotC not being really dumb.

I also think that if we went back in time six months and asked "will WotC try to revoke the irrevocable OGL 1.0a" that would also not be seen as likely or possible and would be seen as a very dumb move. Still, here we are.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's an interesting story and I liked it lol but doesn't show WotC stealing any books.

keep watching...

I was well aware during that time, that, if/when the DDI went down, I wouldn't have any books lol. I didn't mind because it was a subscription service and I was making a choice. Whereas with Beyond, the books are each a specific purchase. You don't need the subscription to access them, it just enables you to share them with others.

except if they shut down Beyond for 6e in 2028 you loose access to those books you bought. Unless you think that they will never shut down Beyond (and at the onset of 4e linda DID think they were never shutting down DDI)

Now, if Beyond ever deletes any of my books, or stops me accessing them, that'd be stealing my books.

again, all it takes is for the server to be taken down.

My expectation is, though, that WotC will probably just make all the books I own available as PDFs for download if/when they decide to shut down Beyond. And if they don't, well, I'll see them in small claims court, because either they'll turn up and it'll cost them more than I spent on all the books and then some just for the solicitor and barrister's time, even if I somehow lose, or much more likely I'll get nicer order for however much money those books cost, which I can then demand WotC pay lest I send the bailiffs round.

Not a lawyer, but I don't see a claim for someone shutting down a service going very far.

 

[MockingBird]

Well as far as I can tell Dndbeyond hasn't taken Volos or Mordenkainen books away from those that purchased them, even after they stopped printing them. They are just shown as legacy materials.