D&D Beyond Cancellations Changed WotCs Plans

Gizmodo has revealed that the partial OGL v1.1 walkback yesterday was in response to the fan campaign to cancel D&D Beyond subscriptions, with "five digits" worth of cancellations. However, the site also reveals that management at the company believed that fans were overreating and that it would all be forgotten in a few months.

In order to delete a D&D Beyond account entirely, users are funneled into a support system that asks them to submit tickets to be handled by customer service: Sources from inside Wizards of the Coast confirm that earlier this week there were “five digits” worth of complaining tickets in the system. Both moderation and internal management of the issues have been “a mess,” they said, partially due to the fact that WotC has recently downsized the D&D Beyond support team.

Yesterday's walkback removed the royalties from the license, but still 'de-authorized' the OGL v1.0a, something which may or may not be legally possible, depending on who you ask.

Cancelled D&D Beyond Subscriptions Forced Hasbro's Hand

Swift consumer action prompted Dungeons & Dragons publisher Wizards of the Coast to to scrap licensing updates. The players aren't done yet.

gizmodo.com

 

[raniE]

I don't think that's a real issue, and more to the point, it's definitely less of an issue for Beyond people than physical people.

Not at all, because it is impossible for WotC to push an update that changes or removes my physical books. Not so with digital content.

This seems like retcon lol and doesn't really make sense with what you're arguing.

No it is not a retcon and yes it does. People using physical books only will have a far easier time just continuing with their physical books than those in the digital ecosystem, as WotC can’t affect physical books that are already out there.

I don't think people are going to balk hugely at buying new books that they've had essentially a 2-year warning about and that they aren't hard-required to buy. It's not like Beyond is just going to lock you out because you don't have 1D&D.

We don’t know that. I think it’s not unlikely. Would it be stupid? Yes of course, but that clearly isn’t stopping WotC. And then people will get angry that they have to buy the new books to keep using D&D Beyond.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not at all, because it is impossible for WotC to push an update that changes or removes my physical books. Not so with digital content.

This seems like a very silly objection. WotC is not going to steal your books, not even on Beyond. That's the sort of thing that triggers successful class-action lawsuits and makes the EU courts sit up and rub their hands with glee.

People using physical books only will have a far easier time just continuing with their physical books than those in the digital ecosystem, as WotC can’t affect physical books that are already out there.

I guess if you think WotC are going to steal your books on Beyond I can see this attitude lol.

We don’t know that. I think it’s not unlikely. Would it be stupid? Yes of course, but that clearly isn’t stopping WotC. And then people will get angry that they have to buy the new books to keep using D&D Beyond.

I think it's incredibly unlikely. Because it would just straight-up kill 1D&D before it was even born.

Even the people who are saying this OGL stuff is fine, they don't care, they're still excited for 1D&D would be like "To hell with this!" at that point. Some have said as much.

There's stupid, and then there's suicidal. WotC are clearly stupid, but what you're suggesting they will do here goes so far beyond stupidity that it's in a whole different ballpark. People won't just "get angry", they'll start flipping cars and setting them on fire. It would be edition over. Possibly D&D over for a few years. Whichever company got the highest-quality, prettiest, best-advertised ORC-enabled 5E clone out would start absolutely MINTING it mate. They'd probably get into high tens or even low hundreds of millions in sales revenue. Honestly if I was Paizo I'd probably be developing a 5E clone as Pathfinder spin-off right now just on the incredibly low off-chance WotC does something this dumb.

Much more likely is a reverse of the scenario, where WotC have some kind of incentivization of changing to 1D&D, like making it so the 1D&D PHB is part of the Master-level sub (as long as you keep subscribing).

Have you actually used Beyond btw?

 

[raniE]

This seems like a very silly objection. WotC is not going to steal your books, not even on Beyond. That's the sort of thing that triggers successful class-action lawsuits and makes the EU courts sit up and rub their hands with glee.

I guess if you think WotC are going to steal your books on Beyond I can see this attitude lol.

I think it's incredibly unlikely. Because it would just straight-up kill 1D&D before it was even born.

Even the people who are saying this OGL stuff is fine, they don't care, they're still excited for 1D&D would be like "To hell with this!" at that point. Some have said as much.

There's stupid, and then there's suicidal. WotC are clearly stupid, but what you're suggesting they will do here goes so far beyond stupidity that it's in a whole different ballpark. People won't just "get angry", they'll start flipping cars and setting them on fire. It would be edition over. Possibly D&D over for a few years. Whichever company got the highest-quality, prettiest, best-advertised ORC-enabled 5E clone out would start absolutely MINTING it mate. They'd probably get into high tens or even low hundreds of millions in sales revenue. Honestly if I was Paizo I'd probably be developing a 5E clone as Pathfinder spin-off right now just on the incredibly low off-chance WotC does something this dumb.

Much more likely is a reverse of the scenario, where WotC have some kind of incentivization of changing to 1D&D, like making it so the 1D&D PHB is part of the Master-level sub (as long as you keep subscribing).

Hasbro management don’t understand TTRPGs. So I don’t see them being able to gauge if a move is smart or stupid or suicidal.

Have you actually used Beyond btw?

Yes, but I never really got into it. Had a DM who shared all the books, but I already owned them in paper and preferred to use a paper character sheet. I was the only one in that group not running a character on paper, if I recall correctly. Later I ran a game which included that guy as a player, so we still had D&D Beyond support for the campaign, but only two players used it while three (plus me) were mostly paper based.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Hasbro management don’t understand TTRPGs. So I don’t see them being able to gauge if a move is smart or stupid or suicidal.

Well, I guess we'll find out lol.

I just don't think they're quite that dumb, because that's the sort of thing that's dumb even outside TTRPGs.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This seems like a very silly objection. WotC is not going to steal your books, not even on Beyond. That's the sort of thing that triggers successful class-action lawsuits and makes the EU courts sit up and rub their hands with glee.

I guess if you think WotC are going to steal your books on Beyond I can see this attitude lol.

they did before.

So I LOVE D&D 4e. I still have every book. I also have pages of Errata I printed (from work so he he) I still use them and drop abilities and magic items into my games (and when I don't tell PF players where they are from they think they are AWESOME).
However my 2 buddies both only bought the PHB 1 then subscribed to get all the content in the compendium and character builder. One of them (lets call her Linda) used to make fun of me for 'wasting money and room'
Now I had a sub too, don't get me wrong.
So when we were still playing 4e Linda was the first to notice a problem. She had to borrow my books when the servers went down. By the last game we played of 4e (about 2017ish) she was going nuts trying to make and update characters. She (and our other buddy lets call him ROss) had to come over and use my books and printouts, or they couldn't make anything they didn't own the books for.

Now back then I didn't have my current level of smartphone. Right now I can go to my 'notes' and scan a page or two and email it to them. However back then, it was blurry pics or me typing it out or them coming to look.

so the reason I bring this up is Ross is in my current 5e game, and he sometimes asks when I drop things in (like say leading the charge) "Hey can I come over and see the original version" that is how I KNOW I can just scan my PHB and and errata and email it.
Linda however doesn't play 5e however she also doesn't want to buy 4e pdfs for full price and that is what she wants to play/run... so she sometiem asks if she could come 'steal' my books... and I remind her everytime " you mean those wastes of money and space?"

 

[Ulfgeir]

As I was the one using causal players at the start of this mini echange, maybe I should clarify what I meant. I intended it to mean consumers that are not very into looking at the "meta" of what is going on aroubd the game. They can be heavy spenders, but their purchase decissions is more formed by "wow, this looks cool" or "this seem practical", than any deeper dive into the merits of the various products.

For this category a simple badge is of immense value, as they then know at a glance they got something matching their game, and not for instance a supplement for some retroclone that is unusable at your table. (My dad once bought Drakar och Demoner assuming it was a D&D translation)

Well, to be fair in that case, the name Drakar och Demoner was as far as I understand it EXPLICITLY chosen to make people think it was Dungeons & Dragons...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

they did before.

????

That's an interesting story and I liked it lol but doesn't show WotC stealing any books.

I was like Linda myself. I barely had any 4E books once the DDI got going. I had like, the core, PHB2 & 3, DMG2, and the Essentials books, and I think that's it.

But I was well aware during that time, that, if/when the DDI went down, I wouldn't have any books lol. I didn't mind because it was a subscription service and I was making a choice. Whereas with Beyond, the books are each a specific purchase. You don't need the subscription to access them, it just enables you to share them with others. The only thing I was mad about when it finally got turned off was that I wasn't able to get back in to retrieve our characters (despite the free grace period allowed, I couldn't get my PW to reset). Luckily I found we'd PDF'd them all years ago and I'd just forgotten, they were sitting on my Google drive.

Now, if Beyond ever deletes any of my books, or stops me accessing them, that'd be stealing my books. My expectation is, though, that WotC will probably just make all the books I own available as PDFs for download if/when they decide to shut down Beyond. And if they don't, well, I'll see them in small claims court, because either they'll turn up and it'll cost them more than I spent on all the books and then some just for the solicitor and barrister's time, even if I somehow lose, or much more likely I'll get nicer order for however much money those books cost, which I can then demand WotC pay lest I send the bailiffs round.

 

[raniE]

Well, I guess we'll find out lol.

I just don't think they're quite that dumb, because that's the sort of thing that's dumb even outside TTRPGs.

I mean, if you're right and they're not quite that dumb, then you are absolutely right that this won't hurt those newly joined players financially much if at all. I still think that just the experience of an edition change will induce some to abandon the game, especially when combined with bad PR, but it won't be as bad. I just have little faith in WotC not being really dumb.

I also think that if we went back in time six months and asked "will WotC try to revoke the irrevocable OGL 1.0a" that would also not be seen as likely or possible and would be seen as a very dumb move. Still, here we are.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's an interesting story and I liked it lol but doesn't show WotC stealing any books.

keep watching...

I was well aware during that time, that, if/when the DDI went down, I wouldn't have any books lol. I didn't mind because it was a subscription service and I was making a choice. Whereas with Beyond, the books are each a specific purchase. You don't need the subscription to access them, it just enables you to share them with others.

except if they shut down Beyond for 6e in 2028 you loose access to those books you bought. Unless you think that they will never shut down Beyond (and at the onset of 4e linda DID think they were never shutting down DDI)

Now, if Beyond ever deletes any of my books, or stops me accessing them, that'd be stealing my books.

again, all it takes is for the server to be taken down.

My expectation is, though, that WotC will probably just make all the books I own available as PDFs for download if/when they decide to shut down Beyond. And if they don't, well, I'll see them in small claims court, because either they'll turn up and it'll cost them more than I spent on all the books and then some just for the solicitor and barrister's time, even if I somehow lose, or much more likely I'll get nicer order for however much money those books cost, which I can then demand WotC pay lest I send the bailiffs round.

Not a lawyer, but I don't see a claim for someone shutting down a service going very far.

 

[MockingBird]

Well as far as I can tell Dndbeyond hasn't taken Volos or Mordenkainen books away from those that purchased them, even after they stopped printing them. They are just shown as legacy materials.