D&D 5E D&D Class Design Criticism

For those who say their campaigns never really go long enough to reach 20th level, and so never see higher level abilities come into play, what about changing advancement? Instead of leveling up one level at a time, why not increments of 2 or 3? So combine discrete levels into packets of 2 or 3 levels worth. So a campaign that might go 10 levels, everyone advances two levels per "level".

One cool side effect, for those who like multiclassing, you'd get a more "dual class" feel since a PC could rise simultaneously in two classes at once.

Sounds like a band-aid fix more than anything. First, accelerating the levels to reach the higher ones faster just makes the leveling process pointless. Second -- and more importantly here -- it does nothing to address the fact that running high-level adventures (T3 and T4) is much more difficult than the early stuff, due to the way magic trivializes all the types of challenges that we associate with good adventures. It's kind of like the funny comment about why Gandalf didn't just have the giant eagles fly to Mordor in the first place. People like try and come up with all kinds of reasons why (too dangerous, they aren't bound to his will, etc) but it really just comes down to this: there would have been no story.

It all really does still just come down to problem with the spell lists. They were broken back in 1-2e at later levels because Wizards got stupidly powerful, but at least then the game didn't assume (or even encourage) high level play as part of the expected experience. With later editions trying to encourage the full 1-20 experience by virtue of giving non-spellcasters cool new powers later on to keep up, yet often showing zero guidance on how to actually run those later levels, they've painted themselves back into a corner.
 

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Sounds like a band-aid fix more than anything.
"...were I to implement it. Though that's just my opinion."

First, accelerating the levels to reach the higher ones faster just makes the leveling process pointless.
"...to me. YMMV."

Second -- and more importantly here -- it does nothing to address the fact that running high-level adventures (T3 and T4) is much more difficult than the early stuff, due to the way magic trivializes all the types of challenges that we associate with good adventures.
"...in my games. I've heard others have had much better success in that department."

It all really does still just come down to problem with the spell lists.
"...at my table. But I can't speak for everyone."

With later editions trying to encourage the full 1-20 experience by virtue of giving non-spellcasters cool new powers later on to keep up, yet often showing zero guidance on how to actually run those later levels, they've painted themselves back into a corner.
"...IMO. Though the devs have said otherwise and even given suggestions based on their survey data to address that very issue. Not to mention I realize others don't have the same problem even though I'm talking like its fact and not my personal opinion."
 

"...were I to implement it. Though that's just my opinion."


"...to me. YMMV."


"...in my games. I've heard others have had much better success in that department."


"...at my table. But I can't speak for everyone."


"...IMO. Though the devs have said otherwise and even given suggestions based on their survey data to address that very issue. Not to mention I realize others don't have the same problem even though I'm talking like its fact and not my personal opinion."

I had no idea we were supposed to preface our posts with "This is just my opinion but, "
 

I had no idea we were supposed to preface our posts with "This is just my opinion but, "

This is JMHO, but...

Sounds like a band-aid fix more than anything. First, accelerating the levels to reach the higher ones faster just makes the leveling process pointless.
Leveling isn't even, either. The first few levels go very fast, then they slow down through about 11th, then speed up again. The exp chart focuses campaigns on the 'sweet spot' mid-levels where 5e works best. Speeding to the higher levels won't make the higher levels any better. Though it will, in theory, address the complaint that any defining higher level abilities don't come up soon enough, it'll also mean you don't get to use them as long, since you spend less time playing at those levels (less time on the campaign, generally).

Second -- and more importantly here -- it does nothing to address the fact that running high-level adventures (T3 and T4) is much more difficult than the early stuff, due to the way magic trivializes all the types of challenges that we associate with good adventures.
Nod, that's always been the case, even when high levels were least problematic, characters could simply do more at those levels and running the game was more challenging. Of course, you get some experience DMing as they go up in levels, and the players & the DM, in a conventional up-from-1st campaign, learn the PCs' abilities very well on the way to high level, so that should help.

It's kind of like the funny comment about why Gandalf didn't just have the giant eagles fly to Mordor in the first place. People like try and come up with all kinds of reasons why (too dangerous, they aren't bound to his will, etc) but it really just comes down to this: there would have been no story.
It's a style thing. D&D lets you go with that kind of 'what if,' exploration of fiction, you can take the stereotypical fantasy formula and turn it on it's ear, or play straight with it, depending on your whim.

It all really does still just come down to problem with the spell lists. They were broken back in 1-2e at later levels because Wizards got stupidly powerful, but at least then the game didn't assume (or even encourage) high level play as part of the expected experience.
It presented rules for high level play, including exp tables that went to quite high levels & a wizard spell/day chart that went into the 20s, arguably 'high-level' monsters, tons of magic items, etc.
With later editions trying to encourage the full 1-20 experience by virtue of giving non-spellcasters cool new powers later on to keep up,
3.5 gave fighters some feats that required +8 BAB or a minimum fighter level, but the last 1/4 of the 1-20 experience were just picking up feats they'd passed on in the past. Of course, 3.5 went Epic, too. Besides, earlier editions gave the non-casters cool items to keep up at high level, in theory, anyway, it kinda depended on how you rolled on those treasure tables, but they were weighted that way.

yet often showing zero guidance on how to actually run those later levels, they've painted themselves back into a corner.
In 5e there's only so much guidance you can give - and precious little thanks you get for giving it (6-8 encounter days? just say'n) - there are encounter guidelines, but they're not dependable at any level. It's just a matter of DM talent/experience making the game work at high level. I doubt it's a coincidence that APs run their course in fewer than 20 levels.
 
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I had no idea we were supposed to preface our posts with "This is just my opinion but, "
No. But you definitely presented your opinions which read, to me, like some kind of sweeping, objective fact. You made universal claims that apply only to your particular playstyle. Not anyone else's. Would my suggestions above work for you and your table? I guess not. And that's fine. But don't act like they have zero value to anyone else.

BTW, I'm in a second campaign with some friend. One that doesn't go off all that frequently. Maybe once every few months or so. Because of the infrequency, we level after every session. I wouldn't do it for my weekly campaign. But it works for that campaign. Again, I get that such a thing might not work for you. Cool. But it would be foolish to reply with something like, "That doesn't work, because...", when clearly it does for us. Hope that drift is catchable.
 
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"...were I to implement it. Though that's just my opinion."


"...to me. YMMV."


"...in my games. I've heard others have had much better success in that department."


"...at my table. But I can't speak for everyone."


"...IMO. Though the devs have said otherwise and even given suggestions based on their survey data to address that very issue. Not to mention I realize others don't have the same problem even though I'm talking like its fact and not my personal opinion."
Don't post just to hassle someone, please. You're certainly welcome to point out that you think someone's opinion or experience might not be universal, but keep it civil.
 

If fourth edition had never existed, and they'd had no reason to believe that anything like the Warlord was something that should exist in D&D, then I don't think anyone would be complaining about it now.

A world without Warlords isn't significantly different from a world without Bards, Druids, Ninjas, or Cosmo Knights. If something doesn't exist in the game you're trying to play, then you make something that does exist. What's the big deal?

This assumes that D&D is the only game they've ever played and all their exposure to media comes from D&D.

I had home brewed stuff similar to the Warlord in concept even back in 3e, before the Marshal has come out. I wanted a nonmagic guy that could help without being a beater like the warrior or a backstabbing assassin luke the Rogue. Preferably one with social skills and the ability to organize/lead groups.

Like a noble/merchant/advisor guy.
 
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Oh, the game definitely does not work at high levels. You may count that as objective, sweeping fact.

Though not for the reasons discussed here. D&D Wizards can actually do very little of the game-shattering stuff.

High level spells may trivialize a challenge, but mostly only if the challenge was lower-levelled to begin with.

The problem with 5e at high level is that the 5e design exhibits just the kind of naive half-baked simplistic design that lands you in this kind of trouble.

Not that high level must do so.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

It's kind of like the funny comment about why Gandalf didn't just have the giant eagles fly to Mordor in the first place. People like try and come up with all kinds of reasons why (too dangerous, they aren't bound to his will, etc) but it really just comes down to this: there would have been no story.
My apologies, I have nothing on-topic to say, but if you read LotR Tolkien does include a very simple and completely appropriate explanation why the eagles don't just fly the Ring to Mount Doom. It's just Jackson chose to completely omit that explanation, for whatever reason. :/
 

This assumes that D&D is the only game they've ever played and all their exposure to media comes from D&D.
I had home brewed stuff similar to the Warlord in concept even back in 3e....
The lack of any mechanical support for the AD&D 9th-level 'Lord' (among others) to actually being an effective combat leader for his band of followers, alone, was noticeable enough, even back in the day, even having only played D&D. Maybe not as front-and-center as dissatisfaction with Vancian leading to mana systems and spell-point variants were, but evident. ;)


Oh, the game definitely does not work at high levels. You may count that as objective, sweeping fact.
Great, just what we need, another claim of objective universal truth for the everything's-subjective crowd to push back against. Enjoy your ride on that merry-go-round.
 

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