D&D 5E D&D Class Design Criticism

[Tony Vargas]

This is something that's kind of bothered me since the 3e days, but it seems to get worse with each edition. Basically, classes really only start to feel "complete" in the later levels. Just think of all the character concepts that don't really come online until level 8 or 11 or something, which is basically the tail end of an average AP.

It may be 'necessary' in 5e & 3.x because of their takes on MCing.
In the classic game, you typically MC'd as a non-/demi- human from 1st level on, the only 'late blooming build' was a magic-user or the like, by default, and, of course, the proto-PrC-like 1e appendix Bard - if you MC'd to get something spiffy at 1st level, you continued to pay the price for it as you leveled in both classes and eventually hit level limits.
In 3.x & 5e you can 'dip' so it makes sense to limit what you can grab with just a level or two of a class.

Does anyone else wish more class features came online much earlier

Yes. I like to be able to have a realized character concept at 1st level. In 5e, you can't just start as a 1/1 fighter/magic-user like in the olden days, for instance - even if you avoid MCing and go EK, your spells don't kick in until 3rd.

That said, I can't think of a good way to make that happen that'd otherwise work with 5e as it currently is.

and maybe topped out at level 10?

:shrug: It'd be nice if the game worked better all the way through 20th. I don't see giving up on high levels as productive, even if they're not visited much, atm. OTOH, the exp chart is designed to speed you through the lowest and highest levels and linger in the 'sweet spot' when the game is at its best. Apropos of nothing, 13th Age, which had a lot of the same goals as 5e, did happen to go with only 10 levels in total.

 

[Cyvris]

This is honestly my biggest issue with 5e and one of the major things preventing me from really enjoying the game overall. Some things simply come on too "late" to really define the class, while others are great ideas but just too limited (glares at Fighter Superiority Dice). My ideal RPG would define each classes' core "fun thing" at level one, make it super easy to use, and then expand off of it.

5e has some of this, but it is swingey. Let a Monk have his Flurry of Blows and a Fighter (All Martial characters really) her Superiority Dice right out of the gate. Make them as central to the character as spells and then expand on them as mechanic, instead of leaving them as a simple mechanic along side the character's other abilities. At level 1 Flurry of Blows is damage, later it's damage and effect, later add movement. Give each category a choice/option or tie it to a subclass and overall the class has a single defining element that players experience from the get go.

 

[discosoc]

:shrug: It'd be nice if the game worked better all the way through 20th. I don't see giving up on high levels as productive, even if they're not visited much, atm. OTOH, the exp chart is designed to speed you through the lowest and highest levels and linger in the 'sweet spot' when the game is at its best. Apropos of nothing, 13th Age, which had a lot of the same goals as 5e, did happen to go with only 10 levels in total.

Somewhat related is the issue of how magic spells and effects scale. As long as the golden goose of 5th level fireballs -- so to speak -- doesn't change, there will always be a lot of pressure to making the other classes catch up in power for the later levels. That just feeds into the issues that make designing encounters and adventures incredibly difficult at the mid and higher levels compared to the first half (especially ones that aren't custom-tailored for a specific group). If magic power slowed down after the 3rd spell level (gain level 3 spells at 5th like normal, but level 4 doesn't come online until 9th, and level 5 is 13th, etc), I think there'd be less desire to make sure other classes have some unique feature gained every level.

I could totally see a 6E where all unique class features are gained by level 10, and everything after that just upgrades or sidegrades them for customization. Spell levels top out at 5th, and the 6th-9th could be acquired differently (maybe something like the way Mystic Arcanum works). Then they could use the "epic" levels of 21-30 to explore truly high-powered options for the groups that want to do that (and the GM that wants to customize those adventures for their group power levels).

Probably too much to hope for, but still...

 

[hawkeyefan]

Can't anyone who wants more abilities simply lump levels together? So treat levels 1-3 as first level, levels 4-5 as second level, and so on.

Seems like an easy fix.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Can't anyone who wants more abilities simply lump levels together? So treat levels 1-3 as first level, levels 4-5 as second level, and so on.

Seems like an easy fix.

"3rd is the new 1st" did not catch on the way I thought it was going to. ;(

 

[MichaelSomething]

Cap levels at 10, and replace it with some kind of prestige class system.

So do what 3.5 did basically?

 

[Charles Rampant]

I'm not seeing the truth in the premise. Can you provide concrete examples of high level abilities that are fundamental and required for character concepts?

 

[hawkeyefan]

"3rd is the new 1st" did not catch on the way I thought it was going to. ;(

I think you're right in a way. But I don't think simply starting at 3rd level addresses the entire concern from the OP.

So I think that merging the levels into bunches makes sense to address that concern, at least to some extent. If I shared the concern, I think that is the way I'd address it. Levels 1 to 3 in the book would be my Level 1, levels 4 and 5 would be my Level 2, levels 6 to 9 would be my Level 3, and so on. so I'd have maybe 6 total levels.

I think the only complication on this is what to do about Proficiency Bonus and HP. But since I have 6 levels, I think it's pretty easy to simply have Proficiency bonus increase by 1 for each level. Total HP and HD seems the bigger question....I suppose it would depend on what kind of game I was going for, more gritty or high adventure. Depending on how this was handled, it could affect the Challenge Rating and all the encounter scaling.

But hey, those are pretty much useless anyway!

 

[Alexemplar]

I'm not seeing the truth in the premise. Can you provide concrete examples of high level abilities that are fundamental and required for character concepts?

This is what I was thinking. At 3rd level, every class has it's shtick and seems plenty differentiated from one another. I personally like the way classes unfold now in that they allow players to familiarize themselves with the basics before they start getting too many special abilities.

Although I think a "How to generate characters and wealth at higher levels" guide of the sort we saw in the 3e DMG would be incredibly useful.

 

[Lanliss]

This is what I was thinking. At 3rd level, every class has it's shtick and seems plenty differentiated from one another. I personally like the way classes unfold now in that they allow players to familiarize themselves with the basics before they start getting too many special abilities.

Although I think a "How to generate characters and wealth at higher levels" guide of the sort we saw in the 3e DMG would be incredibly useful.

Page 38 of the DMG has exactly this.