D&D General D&D Combat is fictionless

[Garthanos]

Oh no, we here in the intelligentsia treat all Romance languages as one.

pst (with - avec or without - sans)

Your fiction caused trouble for you because it relied on part of the future turning out how you decided in advance. In-world, Han shot first... the fighter did waffle.

And for me that waffling means he may have broadcast what he intended. Subtle things are going on people are glancing various ways expressions on their faces and so on.

 

[FrogReaver]

I would put it that we don't know what happens until it happens. We played to find out.

all gaming on some level is playing to find out. I’m not sure how pointing that out is useful to this discussion

So is your objection essentially to fiction emerging from game mechanics?

No. if I had to summarize it to a line it would be ‘game mechanics not flowing from fiction.’ Though even that’s a bit of a gross oversimplification.

The initiative mechanic represents it. The relationship is representative, not causal. There is no causality in fiction.

There is causality in the real world though and it’s the real world where fiction is generated.

I also disagree that the initiative mechanic represents anything at all about stumbling.

It suggests we should be mindful of what we are glossing over. Conscious that we are suspending disbelief. When I say "The bar you enter is dingy, but thronged." There is objectively no bar, only the subjective impression of a bar in your imagination, and probably a somewhat different bar in my imagination. Let's consider an ordinary D&D situation: the party walk into a bar, which the DM describes with the usual brevity. Every person at the table will now have a different bar in mind. Each bar will omit numerous details that real bars possess. However, the players will still be able to enjoy a fiction in common - by simply not minding about those differences.

Still doesn’t seem to apply to this discussion.

 

[Garthanos]

I also disagree that the initiative mechanic represents anything at all about stumbling.

Well it does use Dexterity instead of the mental stat like Wisdom for decisiveness or Intelligence for quick thinking. TBH I never thought that made much sense.

 

[Maxperson]

You say the orcs are acting based on fiction that hasn't been generated yet, and I say they are acting in accord with the fiction that actually is generated. I'd love to bridge that gap in understanding.

What fiction would that be that allows all 30 orcs to go first(they won initiative and there is no surprise) and all move up to 60 feet and/or attack before the fighter can move a muscle, yet still make sense?

The waffle/stumble/freeze is narrative that emerges from the initiative mechanic, as it happened to play out on this occasion.

Except that it doesn't. Waffles come from mechanical effects such as the confusion spell. Stumbles happen because of the trip and other mechanics. Freezes from from hold person and other such effects.

And as I pointed out in a prior post, those narrative delays result in ridiculousness if you have multiple PCs that lost initiative. The fighter stumbles. The wizard who goes after the fighter now has to have an even greater narrative delay than 30 orcs moving AND a fighter who stumbled to explain why he goes after the fighter. Now the rogue who rolled badly on initiative goes after the wizard needs a narrative delay that explains why he is going after 30 orcs move, 1 fighter stumbled, one wizard whatevered, and a partridge in a pear tree. Then the cleric...

 

[FrogReaver]

Well it does use Dexterity instead of the mental stat like Wisdom for decisiveness or Intelligence for quick thinking. TBH I never thought that made much sense.

Dexterity initiative makes sense to me if your an archer attacking another archer or melee 5ft away attacking another melee.

it doesn’t make sense when 30ft of movement is also added to the mix.

 

[Garthanos]

What fiction would that be that allows all 30 orcs to go first(they won initiative and there is no surprise) and all move up to 60 feet and/or attack before the fighter can move a muscle, yet still make sense?

no idea

Dexterity initiative makes sense to me if your an archer attacking another archer or melee 5ft away attacking another melee.

both seem more related to skill and aggressiveness. Which is partly level, partly weapon appropriate attribute, and partly personality

it doesn’t make sense when 30ft of movement is also added to the mix.

well movement has gracefulness factor I suppose

 

[FrogReaver]

What fiction would that be that allows all 30 orcs to go first(they won initiative and there is no surprise) and all move up to 60 feet and/or attack before the fighter can move a muscle, yet still make sense?

Except that it doesn't. Waffles come from mechanical effects such as the confusion spell. Stumbles happen because of the trip and other mechanics. Freezes from from hold person and other such effects.

And as I pointed out in a prior post, those narrative delays result in ridiculousness if you have multiple PCs that lost initiative. The fighter stumbles. The wizard who goes after the fighter now has to have an even greater narrative delay than 30 orcs moving AND a fighter who stumbled to explain why he goes after the fighter. Now the rogue who rolled badly on initiative goes after the fighter and needs a narrative delay that explains why he is going after 30 orcs move, 1 fighter stumbled, one wizard whatevered, and a partridge in a pear tree. Then the cleric...

IMO, To Clearstream the fiction is being generated after the turn/round. Which allows for fiction to be generated that takes into account all the oddities of turn based resolution and smooths them over into a cohesive sensible narrative.

Except there’s one oddity that remains with that position. The mechanical turn based resolution for a simultaneous round ceases to have a basis in fiction at the moment those mechanics are being invoked.

 

[Maxperson]

Dexterity initiative makes sense to me if your an archer attacking another archer or melee 5ft away attacking another melee.

it doesn’t make sense when 30ft of movement is also added to the mix.

It makes some sense still. Dex in D&D is dex and agility combined. However, you don't move and light speed, so movement in combat if we're adding in some realism, should have a negative effect on initiative.

 

[Maxperson]

IMO, To Clearstream the fiction is being generated after the turn/round. Which allows for fiction to be generated that takes into account all the oddities of turn based resolution and smooths them over into a cohesive sensible narrative.

I know, but when you have 30 orcs going first, a fighter who can't move at all until after the orcs all go and is not suffering a narrative stumble, the wizard has to have a narrative delay in the fiction that makes him slower than 30 orcs and a stumbled fighter since we're taking into account all the oddities. Then the rogue has to have a narrative delay that makes him slower than 30 orcs, a now stumbled fighter that has since recovered and acted and a whatevered wizard that has recovered after the fighter and acted. Then the cleric has to have a narrative delay that explains all of the above. There isn't a cohesive sensible narration that covers all of that.

 

[FrogReaver]

I know, but when you have 30 orcs going first, a fighter who can't move at all until after the orcs all go and is not suffering a narrative stumble, the wizard has to have a narrative delay in the fiction that makes him slower than 30 orcs and a stumbled fighter since we're taking into account all the oddities. Then the rogue has to have a narrative delay that makes him slower than 30 orcs, a now stumbled fighter that has since recovered and acted and a whatevered wizard that has recovered after the fighter and acted. Then the cleric has to have a narrative delay that explains all of the above. There isn't a cohesive sensible narration that covers all of that.

‘The characters all stood immobilized in fear/awe at the approaching orc horde.’