D&D General D&D Combat is fictionless

[Lyxen]

All true.

Still, power source is more of a descriptive than a mechanically import thing in that edition. It helps classifying things, of course. For instance, Divine classes are usually good at healing even if it's not a Leader. Primal classes get more HP per level than their counterparts of the same role. Arcane classes have elements of battlefield control even when they aren't controllers, and so forth.

I think it really depends as to how you read the rules. I'm not a huge proponent of the RAW in general, but I'm a great proponent of the "fluff", because for me it's the intent that is important, the spirit of the game rather than the exact words. Because, even more than the exact words, the spirit permeates the rules and allows one to understand what type of game it was designed for. For example, I was not surprised that 3e was designed to be "competitive" even if it is never stated in the rules themselves (and for me that was a huge mistake, corrected in every edition since).

Other than that, it's most fluff. Seriously. Just read the Dispel Magic power in the PHB and you'll understand my point.

I don't see why, it even ties in properly with the description of the Detect Magic that I posted, it only works on a conjuration or zone, which is consistent with the first section of Detect Magic. After that, in every edition, Dispel Magic has been fairly specific about its targets, and I must say that the 5e version is not the best one ever either.

 

[Nefermandias]

I think it really depends as to how you read the rules. I'm not a huge proponent of the RAW in general, but I'm a great proponent of the "fluff", because for me it's the intent that is important, the spirit of the game rather than the exact words. Because, even more than the exact words, the spirit permeates the rules and allows one to understand what type of game it was designed for. For example, I was not surprised that 3e was designed to be "competitive" even if it is never stated in the rules themselves (and for me that was a huge mistake, corrected in every edition since).



I don't see why, it even ties in properly with the description of the Detect Magic that I posted, it only works on a conjuration or zone, which is consistent with the first section of Detect Magic. After that, in every edition, Dispel Magic has been fairly specific about its targets, and I must say that the 5e version is not the best one ever either.

It works on conjurations and zones regardless of power source.

 

[Lyxen]

It works on conjurations and zones regardless of power source.

And at the same time, the only types of those (at least in the PH, but it seems logical) are Arcane or Divine, so magical...

 

[Nefermandias]

And at the same time, the only types of those (at least in the PH, but it seems logical) are Arcane or Divine, so magical...

Yes, the logic is sound. You could also mention that there are no Implement Martial powers and that any Arcane Power is called a "spell" and Divine ones are called "prayers" I get that.
I'm only pointing out that the word "magic" doesn't really have much weight in 4e. They deliberately made so that all power sources could be capable of filling every role.

 

[Maxperson]

There's almost no way to impose the unconscious condition in 4e except as a byproduct of the dying condition.

That to me is a pretty serious flaw in any game system. You shouldn't have to be dying to be unconscious.

 

[Lyxen]

Yes, the logic is sound. You could also mention that there are no Implement Martial powers and that any Arcane Power is called a "spell" and Divine ones are called "prayers" I get that.

I actually did a few posts back.

I'm only pointing out that the word "magic" doesn't really have much weight in 4e. They deliberately made so that all power sources could be capable of filling every role.

Yes, but for me that is not something that I find positive in particular in a class (and role) game like D&D (and in particular 4e). On the other hand, what I used to like where the power sources themselves, because the tags associated with them made it clear the visualisation that you could get out of the associated powers, including the later Power Sources of Primal, Psionic and Shadow.

So I would agree that "magic" in itself was not important, but the power source really was important. And that included the fact that I really found myself in the Martial power source, to emulate the incredibly cool blademasters of literature, in particular those of the Wheel of Time.

The side effect of that was that I really took to heart the fact that it was not magic (although it could be slightly mystical, like chi or the void / oneness), hence a delineation that meant that mish-mashing did not look pleasing to me.

 

[Garthanos]

That to me is a pretty serious flaw in any game system. You shouldn't have to be dying to be unconscious.

I think someone misspoke/mistyped any attack reducing an adversary below zero hit points can be declared to be not deadly but rather instead knocking them unconcious.

In real life that is actually very difficult to not cause some marked trauma and potentially very dangerous knocking someone out ... it is honoring a trope making it otherwise.

edit: I go a step further and allow defeated in a not-deadly to mean any of a number of things beyond just unconscious, like disarmed and demoralized. Or even in some cases the dead condition might be stoned or perma transmogrified.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm only pointing out that the word "magic" doesn't really have much weight in 4e. They deliberately made so that all power sources could be capable of filling every role.

In classic Celtic Mythology I have read mention a concept of "Warrior Magic". Smith Magic was also considered a thing too. I kind of think its assuming we have significant, "what modern people call not magical" people in a highly magical universe is perhaps an issue. It's not just Chi/Qi that evokes the martial source.

 

[pemerton]

That to me is a pretty serious flaw in any game system. You shouldn't have to be dying to be unconscious.

When reducing a character/creature to zero hp you can always choose for them to be unconscious instead of dying (similar to 5e D&D but without being confined to melee attacks). But that is not applicable to the Orc chieftain who stabs Frodo - he is trying to kill, not capture!

In this respect 4e D&D is no different from AD&D, 3E or 5e - in all of these games, the default consequence of being dropped to zero hp is death or dying.

It contrasts with (say) Rolemaster, Classic Traveller or Burning Wheel, where is is very common for character/creatures to be unconscious but not dying not because anyone wanted to capture rather than kill them, but because those systems have rules that result in a wider range of debuff conditions resulting from suffering injury.

EDIT:

I think someone misspoke/mistyped any attack reducing an adversary below zero hit points can be declared to be not deadly but rather instead knocking them unconcious.

No one misspoke. I was in a conversation in which I took it for granted that my interlocutor (@Lyxen) was familiar with the 4e rules. And my point was that in 4e there is almost no way to inflict the unconsciousness condition as a byproduct of trying to kill someone, other than imposing the dying condition by dropping them to zero hp.

This contrasts with many (non-D&D) RPGs that have more gritty or "realistic" systems for injurises.

 

[Lyxen]

In real life that is actually very difficult to not cause some marked trauma and potentially very dangerous knocking someone out ... it is honoring a trope making it otherwise.

I agree there, in real life it's hard not to be life-threatening and knock someone unconscious, but it's such a trope of the genre that in that case verisimilitude is to me more important than realism.

edit: I go a step further and allow defeated in a not-deadly to mean any of a number of things beyond just unconscious, like disarmed and demoralized. Or even in some cases the dead condition might be stoned or perma transmogrified.

And indeed this is what the game is about, creativity and allowing cool things.