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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

Hussar

Legend
Yeah absolutely, and how I run naval combat would probably be wrong for your group, from what you said about the 5e rules for naval combat. The wall in this thread isn’t facts, it’s very much preference.

Well that and the fact that it’s become an absurd rambling mess that’s much more about quibbling over semantics and detailed particulars of rules systems than it is about the thread topic.
But, see, here's the thing. It works both ways. Because, as often as you've seen people suggesting using a different system, I've seen people make claims that 5e can easily do just about anything. (Or D&D in general). So, if I ask "How do I do X in D&D" and you have tried to do X and it didn't work, isn't it perfectly fair to say, "Hey, don't try to do that - it is an exercise in futility because D&D doesn't really do that."

I mean, @Imaro's solution was I should pick up a 200+ page book in order to find answers. Which is perfectly fine. But, if it takes a 200 + page book to solve my problems, that, to me anyways, means that 5e doesn't really do what I want it to do. @dave2008's solutions were very good, but drastically increase the lethality of the game (stripping out casters means no healing and no way to remove status effects) which I didn't want. So, no, it's not easy to do X in 5e. It's easy to do X only so long as you get to control what X is.
 

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Hussar

Legend
I say, D&D fans always say that D&D can do everything because they count D&D houseruled to hell and back as, well, D&D, and not a separate, different system — because there is no clear way to tell, whether it is still D&D or not — so it makes sense that "a game where Fighters, Rogues, Wizards and whatnot are doing dirty bussiness in the crime-ridden city of Sharn" is a D&D game in their book. So they wouldn't say "Oh, we aren't playing 5e, we are playing my hack, The Long Knives of Sharn".

PbtA and Blades fans, on the other hand, treat houseruled system as a separate entity, based on the original one. So, if one would want to run Blades mechanics, but set in a vaguely medieval fantasy world with dragons and naughty word, they wouldn't treat it as Blades in the Dark — but as another game (khm-khm, Swords under the Sun).
There used to be a poster here on the boards, a RavenCrowking, who had a 300+ binder of rules for his 3e game that he INSISTED was still 3e D&D.

So, yeah, I've seen that.

The truly ironic thing about this whole thread is you could change 5e to AD&D, roll the calendar back about 20 years to when people were still arguing whether 3e or AD&D was better, and you'd see IDENTICAL arguments made in favor of AD&D as are being made about 5e. It's really funny. Trawl back to some of the earliest threads here on En World and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. The notion that a lack of mechanics = support is something that has been part and parcel of D&D for a very long time.
 

Hussar

Legend
I mean, that's a dangerous road to go down, because by that logic, very few games support anything. You'd need an extremely narrowly-designed or nearly perfectly-designed game to completely avoid that issue.
Not really. D&D handles heroic fantasy pretty darn well. The whole HP system, combat system, healing system and class systems have been molded over the years to handle it all pretty well.

It's a pretty rare game that fails to support it's core conceits. There's a great quote about game design by, I want to say John Wick but it's been a long time, which goes something to the effect of, "When designing again, ask yourself, what is this game about? Really drill down to the core of what this game is about. Now, how does your game help you to do that?" And, really, the more successful a game is, the better it hits that mark.
 

If following the rules of the game results in the game not doing X, is it fair to say that the game does not support X?

I mean, the rules are pretty clear here. On a failed Stealth check, the character using Perception SEES the other character. So, what should the guard do when he can actually see an intruder?

Note, this isn't hypothetical. I've seen this done by multiple DM's in multiple editions of D&D. Granted, I can't think of a time it happened when I DM'd, but, that's because I refuse to run Infiltration/Heist scenarios because I know they don't work worth a damn in D&D. IOW, yeah, I learned from my experience - Don't do that type of scenario in D&D because it's not worth it/.
This feels slightly untruthful because the rules haven't worked identically through "multiple editions of D&D" and thus you claiming "multiple DMs" have done this feels like a stretch, especially given you're claiming it "isn't hypothetical" in the same paragraph.

In different editions, this could have gone down very different ways, either RAW or with some fiat involved (which would have been necessary in say, 2E), particularly as it interacted with surprise rules and so on, the exact positioning of characters, etc. Even in 5E it's not necessarily correct to say a failed Stealth check automatically means you're "seen", unless you were shuffling past in front of a guard or something. There are a lot of scenarios were a guard would just investigate, or go to get someone, rather than immediately screaming for help. These guards aren't typically elite, or well-trained, or devoted (if they are, that's a very specific scenario and you take other approaches).
The truly ironic thing about this whole thread is you could change 5e to AD&D, roll the calendar back about 20 years to when people were still arguing whether 3e or AD&D was better, and you'd see IDENTICAL arguments made in favor of AD&D as are being made about 5e. It's really funny. Trawl back to some of the earliest threads here on En World and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. The notion that a lack of mechanics = support is something that has been part and parcel of D&D for a very long time.
Not just D&D.

It's not a D&D thing, it's an era thing.

You saw it applied to every RPG in existence in the 1990s, I know because I spent half my life online back then, discussing RPGs, and there wasn't a single RPG where people didn't basically try to run an argument along those lines. Nor any RPG that some people didn't think was "ideal" for every single genre in existence. The issue was that this was an era before "system matters" had got much purchase. Some people realized it, but a lot just couldn't get their heads around it.
Not really. D&D handles heroic fantasy pretty darn well. The whole HP system, combat system, healing system and class systems have been molded over the years to handle it all pretty well.
You're literally arguing that D&D can't handle sneaking and stealing things (you extended it beyond mere heists a few posts back), which is a pretty common element of "heroic fantasy", especially of the type D&D was inspired by. So that seems contradictory.

It's a pretty rare game that fails to support it's core conceits.
Oh how soon people forget the d20 era...
 

Hussar

Legend
Even in 5E it's not necessarily correct to say a failed Stealth check automatically means you're "seen", unless you were shuffling past in front of a guard or something.
The only time you could possibly require a perception check from the guard would be when the character has less than total cover. Otherwise no checks would be required. Never minding that you automatically fail those stealth checks as soon as you are in the open, since you need some sort of cover to make a stealth check.

Failed stealth check = guard has seen something. Or, you tried sneaking in with a disguise? Great, guess what, the DM's going to have random NPC's come up to you repeatedly until you fail a check and it's murder time again.

Look, I GET that you folks have apparently had these fantastic DM's that run these scenarios regularly. For me, despite otherwise really great DM's, these scenarios have never, ever worked. They've always failed and then turned the story from Ocean's 11 into Heat. Every time.

It's to the point now where, like I said, I refuse to run these kinds of scenarios when I DM. I simply will not do it. They are exercises in futility. And, frankly, I've gotten to the point where I just roll my eyes any time I'm playing with a DM who does because, without fail, it will end in a massive combat. I simply don't see how you can use the mechanics of D&D and actually run a successful infiltration/heist scenario without a GIANT pile of the DM fiat (or fudging if you prefer). If every guard that succeeds in a spot check never calls for help, never raises the alarm, never challenges an unrecognized person, then, sure, ok, that would work I suppose. But, I've never met a DM who does that, so, AFAIC, that DM remains a mythical beast.

It's kind of like puzzles. I LOATHE puzzles in RPG's. Hate them with a passion. Mysteries are great, but, I'm talking the whole "Riddle of the Sphinx" kind of thing. I hate them. So, I don't use them when I run D&D. Does D&D do puzzles particularly well? I don't think so because there's nothing in the skill system that really works that way. But, then again, I'm very much the wrong person to ask, because I hate puzzles to begin with. :D Since I don't like doing them, find them boring and immersion breaking I don't use them in the game. Same goes for heist/infiltration scenarios. I find they don't work and I have zero interest in spending the next three hours doing nothing but combat. Again, same goes for company scale combat. I have no interest in spending three hours on a single combat, which is how long it will take (at least) to resolve a 50-100 combatant combat in D&D. I've got far, far better things to do with my time.
 


Hussar

Legend
You're literally arguing that D&D can't handle sneaking and stealing things (you extended it beyond mere heists a few posts back), which is a pretty common element of "heroic fantasy", especially of the type D&D was inspired by. So that seems contradictory.
Really? Infiltration/heist scenarios were common in older fantasy? Would that be Conan? Well, no, most Conan stories are not about infiltration/heist scenarios, there's no "planning phase" certainly and even in stories like Tower of the Elephant, which is a kind of heist story, it still doesn't have any planning scene and most of the conflict is resolved by violence. It's a pretty bog standard dungeon crawl really.

I'm wracking my brains for the sneak and steal scenes in The Lord of the Rings. Or Three Hearts and Three Lions. Granted, I've read nowhere near as much Lieber as I would like to, but, Lankhmar is something of its own thing.

Frankly, D&D is about killing stuff and taking its treasure. And, as for doing that, it's really, really good at it. The further you move away from killing stuff and taking its treasure, the less apt D&D is to be able do it without a lot of legwork from the DM. To me, it really is that simple. Note, I LIKE killing stuff and taking its treasure, so, I certainly don't mean that as a bad thing.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
@Imaro, on the general matter of "Does D&D have X to support game genre/style Y?" I would say that there are a handful of ways that a game can offer genre support. If I'm saying that another game is better equipped for supporting something than D&D, then I am probably not necessarily referring to strictly one thing, but likely one or more of these things. We can even talk about this without discussing so many people's current darling game of BitD.

(1) Mechanical Tools: D&D 5E does have a flexible and ever-growing mechanical toolkit, but I think that it is an intentionally rudimentary one. It has a minimal skill list, for example, but those skills are broad, vaguely defined, and left incredibly open-ended and reliant on GM discretion and "rulings not rules" particularly when a roll is called for, the difficulty, the Ability used, and refereeing rules/rulings. What doesn't fall under skills will typically require a general Ability check.

Most games will have at least rudimentary tools to cover gameplay basics. Some mechanical tools exist as add-ons. Some tools will require using supplement books. But some games will have more tools. Some will have more genre-customized tools. Some will have more flexible and generalized tools.

Additionally, whether the GM can make their own tools to do X ventures towards the Oberoni fallacy. But it's also a banal point that is true for any given system. But the amount of work required to do so will vary between systems and GMs. What works as a "good enough" solution for one GM will not work for another.

We can say that D&D 5E has some tools for running Arthurian Romance (e.g., "Can I haz midevil kombat?"), but clearly Prince Valiant and Pendragon will both have greater mechanical tools for supporting trope play. That's even true for combat. Let's take a staple of Arthurian Romance: e.g., jousting and mounted combat.

I have played D&D for 20 years, and I know that other people have been playing longer. But in all that time, I can in full honesty count the number of times mounted combat has come up on one hand with fingers to spare. I recall conversations here and elsewhere about the Paladin in 3e, where people treated the free horse as a negative because horses hinder dungeon crawls and feats specializing in mounted combat were trap options. I know rules for mounted combat exist in 5e (cf. PHB 198), but I have neither seen them used or referenced nor anyone take the Mounted Combatant feat in 5e. Nor have I seen anyone take the Cavalier Fighter subclass. Mounted combat provides no combat advantages apart from speed unless you get the Mounted Combatant feat. Which skill do you use for mounted combat by the way? Doesn't say here under "Controlling a Mount." Presumably Animal Handling when conducting risky maneuvers.

Compare that with Pendragon (5th ed.) where it tells me flat out, "Horses are essential to characters in Pendragon, for they give many advantages in combat" (p. 121), and, indeed, we are told that your character starts with FOUR HORSES! as part of character generation. And this game talks plenty about Jousts and rules for Tournaments. Included in skills are Horsemanship, Lances, and Tourney. Even the Recognize skill suggests that I can use the skill to piece together a face with a jousting style. Mounted combat confers more than just "cool, you're on a horse now" as an advantage in combat. Your added speed and height advantage sitting on a horse translates into actual combat advantages.

(2) Play Procedures: The play procedures hopefully meaningfully interact with the mechanical tools for guiding the shape of play as well as helping to cultivate the genre experience. Do the feedback loops and game procedures of play reinforce the tropes and genre? The game procedures, for example, of Agon will constantly reinforce that you are Greek heroes who seek to bring glory to your name. How? The game's play procedures will have you speak your name, apply your epithet, invoking divine favor, and reciting your deeds as part of contests. The play procedures support the ancient Hellenistic heroic tradition. Obviously you can use D&D to broadly play in the genre of Hellenistic heroes: see Theros. (You're still playing Wizards, Paladins, Druids, and such in Theros though, which admittedly tend to fall outside of trope play.) But in terms of play procedures, one game supports that aspect of trope play more than the other. Would I use D&D then for more detailed grueling combat? Honestly? Probably not. I would be more tempted by Runequest, Mythras, or Jackals (Osprey Publishing), which all use the BRP system.

Additionally, on the GM side of things, this may also include random tables for generating thematically appropriate content: e.g., wandering monsters, traps, treasure, rooms, etc. In the case of the Leverage RPG, I can consult tables for generating a capers situation: i.e., client, problem, pressure, mark, mark's angle, mark's power, mark's weakness, mark's vulnerability, who else is in play, the twist, etc. There are also rules for applying Flashbacks. Stars/Worlds Without Number provides a lot of procedural tools for running sandbox games.

(3) Genre/Play Advice: Apart from mechanical tools and play procedures, there is also active support in the form of just genre advice or how to use game X to run genre Z and/or game mode Y. Let's say that I want to run a dungeon crawl, a caper, or a horror story. How do I that? According to some unhelpful advice in this thread, I simply "git gud" as a GM. But what I would hope is that either a core rulebook or GM/Keeper's guide would provide me with some basic how-to support and guidance so I don't have to go fishing for advice online. Can I run mysteries or investigations with this game? Obviously so. Can I do so without needing to consult the Alexandrian's three clue advice for actively running them? Maybe. Some advice will be more thorough and developed than others.

Does D&D 5e DMG have advice for running dungeon crawls? Sure. But I don't think that the advice there is all that great. Basic D&D (whether Holmes, Moldvay/Cook, or Mentzer) and/or OSE IMO provide better, more developed, and useful advice on running dungeon crawls because that's what their games are primarily about. The Leverage RPG provides a tremendous wealth of GM advice for the heist/capers genre and how to run them: understanding jobs, the client, the mark, supporting characters, briefings, challenges, flashbacks, twists, typical heist settings, framing scenes, etc. The upcoming Ravenloft will likewise undoubtedly provide advice for horror play, though it will also be advice with D&D's gameplay and brand of fantasy in mind.

On the whole, I don't think that 5e D&D excels in providing solid genre advice style support. It has it (e.g., Ravenloft with running horror), but I don't think that the writing in this regard has been a strong point this edition. But a recipe that says "Here's most of the ingredients. Here's a picture of the dish. Figure it out yourself!" will obviously not be as useful as one that provides advice on the step-by-step cooking process, things to watch out for, typical problem spots, etc.

(4) Centrality to Prototypical Gameplay: This dovetails with the above points. While I think that add-on options are available to D&D, such as in the DMG or supplements, which can assist in genre emulation, I think that we can agree that add-ons are generally not part of core gameplay. Furthermore, D&D 5E IMHO is NOT a generic toolkit system like the Cypher System, Fate, Cortex Prime, GURPS, etc. It's not a generic fantasy toolkit system either. It's D&D, which is great and fine if you want to play D&D. It is its own own brand of fantasy, much like Call of Cthulhu is its own brand of horror game. D&D can do other things, but it's either being layered on top of D&D or moving D&D away from what we might call its prototypical gameplay.

@AbdulAlhazred has talked about this a lot in this thread where it's clear what the prototypical gameplay for B/X looks like: i.e., skilled play dungeon crawling. And the mechanical tools, game procedures, and genre advice are all meant to support that prototypical gameplay experience. B/X obviously can do other things, but doing so moves it away from the core experience. Stars Without Number can be used to run neo-traditional games that are about GM cultivated stories, but doing so moves it away from being a game designed to support running OSR-inspired sandboxes.

D&D 5E is not designed to do horror, for example, as part of its core prototypical gameplay. It's prototypical gameplay is neo-traditional style (super)heroic fantasy adventure with sub-classes that have been inspired by popular anime, superheroes, and even Star Wars. The DMG provides some options for changing this up to do horror as does the Ravenloft book. But the prototypical core of 5e gameplay is going to be about that (super)heroic fantasy adventure. I do think that system matters in that regard even within the sphere of D&D but between editions. I'm sure that you recall that @Bedrockgames has repeatedly reported how different and off-putting Ravenloft was in the context of 3e D&D as compared to his initial Ravenloft experiences in either 1e or 2e. And one can only imagine how he would have reacted to Ravenloft were it adapted for 4e. Part of that involves the expected prototypical gameplay experience for 5e in comparison with other editions.

So maybe it would help, Imaro, if you could provide your sense for how D&D 5e rates on a scale of 1 (low) to 5 (high) on how D&D fares with Crime Capers (for example) in comparison with other games using this sample criteria: e.g., Mechanical Tools, Play Procedures, Advice, and Prototypical Gameplay. If I'm missing something as well, I'm open to that. But maybe it would help to provide some rudimentary multi-faceted metrics for how well you think D&D supports X.
 

pemerton

Legend
Let's take a staple of Arthurian Romance: e.g., jousting and mounted combat.

I have played D&D for 20 years, and I know that other people have been playing longer. But in all that time, I can in full honesty count the number of times mounted combat has come up on one hand with fingers to spare. I recall conversations here and elsewhere about the Paladin in 3e, where people treated the free horse as a negative because horses hinder dungeon crawls and feats specializing in mounted combat were trap options. I know rules for mounted combat exist in 5e (cf. PHB 198), but I have neither seen them used or referenced nor anyone take the Mounted Combatant feat in 5e. Nor have I seen anyone take the Cavalier Fighter subclass. Mounted combat provides no combat advantages apart from speed unless you get the Mounted Combatant feat. Which skill do you use for mounted combat by the way? Doesn't say here under "Controlling a Mount." Presumably Animal Handling when conducting risky maneuvers.

Compare that with Pendragon (5th ed.) where it tells me flat out, "Horses are essential to characters in Pendragon, for they give many advantages in combat" (p. 121), and, indeed, we are told that your character starts with FOUR HORSES! as part of character generation. And this game talks plenty about Jousts and rules for Tournaments. Included in skills are Horsemanship, Lances, and Tourney. Even the Recognize skill suggests that I can use the skill to piece together a face with a jousting style. Mounted combat confers more than just "cool, you're on a horse now" as an advantage in combat. Your added speed and height advantage sitting on a horse translates into actual combat advantages.
I've run a fair bit of Prince Valiant recently. It handles mounted combat effortlessly. One thing that makes mounted combat complex in modern iterations of D&D is the action economy - if being on a horse frees up your "move action", then can't you do other stuff with that? Another is the relatively tight maths of combat resolution - if being mounted gives you a significant bonus to hit or damage, isn't that a balance issue? A third is that at mid levels and up, the horse becomes a vulnerable target.

Prince Valiant doesn't have that sort of action economy. It doesn't use map/tactical positioning. A horse gives you a bonus die when fighting someone unmounted - a meaningful bonus - and a warhorse gives another bonus die on top of that. There is no hp or AC system that makes a horse an artificially vulnerable target compared to its rider. Overall, characters without horses are just worse off in combat!

Jousting is just resolved via opposed checks; while a melee can be resolved using the mass combat rules, which are the most complex part of the system but pretty workable.

That is better support than any version of D&D for mounted combat, tournaments and the like.
 

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