D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[pemerton]

I've always thought combat rules were so granular and detailed because it is the area of the game where character death is most likely to be an outcome.

I don't really get this.

In many RPGs PCs are likely to die if they fail a climbing check or balance check and the drop is a long one; but many of those same RPGs have pretty non-granular rules for climbing and balancing.

And combat doesn't have to be deadly - in fact as versions of D&D have increased the granularity of the combat rules they've also increased the possibility for combat loss without dying (4e has the most of both of these).

 

[Ovinomancer]

Right, so based on partial information you determined we couldn't be playing "cosmic horror."

Given that dealing with the incomprehensible is part and parcel, and you've put forth a statement that you didn't bother with that part, yeah. I think you did tentacley horror, though, much like I do when I bend towards the Mythos while playing D&D. D&D is largely incompatible in concept with Cosmic Horror.

 

[dave2008]

Earlier this evening I was reading the treatment of this in Trail of Cthulhu. That system uses Stability + Sanity to try and capture the full range of HPLesque responses (from madness, like in Shadow out of Time and Danforth (I think it is) in At the Mountains of Madness) to pulp-y attempts to destroy horrors from other worlds (The Dunwich Horror is more like this).

The ToC book also discusses the ramming of Cthulhu, and treats it as a one-off that the system isn't committed to allowing replication of.

I am not familiar with trail of Cthulhu, but I would have allowed my PCs to ram Cthulhu with the ship of they could have. Unfortunately, they never made it back to the ship and where crushed as Cthulhu escaped R'yleh and proceed to reigned down cosmic madness on the world. Had they slowed it down in some way it would have been trapped again as R'yleh sank. I had set up a few methods for that to work, but Cthulhu was just to much. I really don't know how that guy survived to get to the ship as described in the story!

 

[dave2008]

Given that dealing with the incomprehensible is part and parcel, and you've put forth a statement that you didn't bother with that part, yeah. I think you did tentacley horror, though, much like I do when I bend towards the Mythos while playing D&D. D&D is largely incompatible in concept with Cosmic Horror.

I disagree, again you are making assumptions. I simply don't think sanity rules are required to get the feel of incomprehensible cosmic horror. That may be a useful crutch for some, but it wasn't needed for us.

Now, if I wanted to implement them in 5e I could, but we didn't like them when we played CoC so we didn't use them with 5e. It was an improvement for us personally.

 

[pemerton]

@pemerton out of curiosity how does Cthulhu Dark handle madness?

Well you can read it, it's only 4 pages!

But here's the basic rule:

When you see something disturbing, roll your Insanity die. If you get higher than your Insanity, add 1 to your Insanity and roleplay your fear.​

You can also be forced to make a roll to see if you Insanity increases if you use your insanity die in a check.

If your insanity die reaches 6, you're insane and out of the game:

When your Insanity reaches 6, you go incurably insane. This is a special moment: everyone focusses on your character’s last moments as their mind breaks. Go out however you want: fight, scream, run or collapse.

Afterwards, either make a new character or continue playing, madly, but retire the character as soon as you can.​

In one of our one-shots one of the PCs kept failing San checks and ended up insane. That player took over an NPC - who was the doctor who ran the asylum where the insane PC ended up - to see out the session.

 

[Imaro]

Well you can read it, it's only 4 pages!

But here's the basic rule:

When you see something disturbing, roll your Insanity die. If you get higher than your Insanity, add 1 to your Insanity and roleplay your fear.​

You can also be forced to make a roll to see if you Insanity increases if you use your insanity die in a check.

If your insanity die reaches 6, you're insane and out of the game:

When your Insanity reaches 6, you go incurably insane. This is a special moment: everyone focusses on your character’s last moments as their mind breaks. Go out however you want: fight, scream, run or collapse.​

​

Afterwards, either make a new character or continue playing, madly, but retire the character as soon as you can.​

In one of our one-shots one of the PCs kept failing San checks and ended up insane. That player took over an NPC - who was the doctor who ran the asylum where the insane PC ended up - to see out the session.

Thanks @pemerton and sorry I didn't realize the game was free...

 

[pemerton]

To add to my post just upthread: I think different people have different opinions about whether it's good or bad that a system should have a rule like roleplay your fear. Personally I don't object to that sort of rule as long as it is clear when it is invoked and it is fairly clear what counts as following the rule.

Somewhat similarly, in our Classic Traveller game we take it for granted that people whose PCs have low or low-ish INT will do their best not to play their PCs as overly clever!

A game like 4e D&D, though, is different and doesn't impose these sorts of demands: the function of INT in 4e is to affect certain ability/skill checks; and the main constraints on roleplay are conditions and effects, not rules like roleplay your fear. Different systems work differently!

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm not sure I would consider it any sort of 'solution' really, it just means it happens less. And yes, I think it helps to have the notion of a complication, whether you call it success or failure is almost semantics in many cases.

People use that word blithely, but semantics matters. The effect word choice has on people is not trivial. A similar thing applies here.

But all these games pretty much lacked any way to decouple things, and each check was always directly connected to one specific narrative fictional element.

Of course the issue is that for some people that's a bridge too far. It has benefits, but that doesn't mean the benefits are always considered worth it. And that was always true. What happened is that some people decided it was worth it, and set about figuring out the best way to do it to suit them.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'll assume you mean In your opinion... got it.

No, I mean that 5e doesn't cover the same genre space as Cosmic Horror, and many of it's core genre logic parts actively fight against Cosmic Horror. Actually doing the genre of Cosmic Horror requires gutting so much of the 5e game that it would no longer be 5e.

I think the problem here may be that people are using the d20+mods vs DC with the GM deciding what happens is 5e, so anything that doe things this way is also 5e. That's an entirely facile definition, though.

I originally asked about the Sanity rules. And yes it does modify them which addresses your entire complaint about Wis and Cha saves. Not sure how you can just dismiss the parts you want in order to make your point. Again feels disingenuous.

You said Sanity and Madness. You can go back and look. I looked at Madness, because all Sanity does is change the lead-ins for the Madness rules. It's an optional subssystem for an optional subsystem. It does nothing on it's own without the Madness rules.

I mean, you can be hurt that I didn't talk to the Sanity rules, but they are an option to an option. I felt dealing with Madness clearly and cleanly as the primary optional rule for these things was more direct to the point. However, sure, you've managed to point out that there's one argument of mine that can be addressed by adding a new stat to all characters, which has other knock on effects like making everyone MAD now, since the combat debuffs from the Madness systems should be prioritized to be avoided, and now you have the build question of whether or not those will be common in the game or rare, which is entirely up to the GM.

I said if you want mechanical effects use the longterm madness as permanent. But there is a school that believes that a player will play their character honestly and with integrity so a mechanical enforcement isn't necessary as they have bough into the genre tropes for cosmic fantasy.

Again, how do Flaws play? They aren't meant to be constant bits, but used to earn Inspiration according to the rules. You're now requiring a specific approach to play, one not even associated with a ruleset, to make the rules work.

Here's a kicker -- I fully want players to fully inhabit and advocate for their PCs, to roleplay with integrity. But I also think having to tell a player how to roleplay is a terrible idea -- it's up to them to do this, it's their fun, not mine. If my game becomes ruined because a player has a different idea what roleplaying their character looks like, then that's my problem, not their. My goal is to have a game and system that encourages roleplaying, not one that demands a specific approach. I don't have a problem with roleplaying in my games -- my players are great! But I'm also not partial to telling them what they have to roleplay, ever. The Madness rules are telling players how to roleplay.

Honestly, if you're fully engaging the 5e rules, then the one bits of the Madness rules that actually engage roleplaying with integrity are the Flaws of permanent madness. These are incentivized by the ruleset via Inspiration. But, most people totally ignore this entire system, and instead rely on the GM policing proper roleplaying so that the GM can force roleplaying onto the players, like how the Madness system works.

I mean, look at Cthulhu Dark. It incentivizes putting your sanity on the line, but leave it as a player choice. The penalties for failing an Insanity roll is that you roleplay your insanity. How is entirely up to the player -- nothing is enforced by the GM.

NO they are not all about applying combat reducing effects and you repeating it doesn't make it so... Any of these affect the character overall not just specifically in combat

Short Term
-The character experiences vivid hallucinations and has disadvantage on ability checks
-The character does whatever anyone tells him or her to do that isn't obviously self-destructive
-The character falls unconscious
-The character begins babbling and is incapable of speech or casting spells
-The character becomes incapacitated and spends the duration screaming, laughing or weeping

Long Term
-The character suffers extreme paranoia. The character has disadvantage on Wis and Cha checks
-The character loses the ability to speak
-The character experiences a powerful delusion. Choose a potion. The character believes he or she is under it's effects.
-The character is blinded or deafened

Yeah, okay, those don't primarily hurt the combat pillar. Remember, without any immediate pressure the short term madness is over in minutes and so doesn't really matter. Long term, most of those are so debilitating that they incentivize sitting out until they wear off. I mean, if you have a few levels of exhaustion, which somewhat mimics most of these, you would take every action to remove them because they will get you killed in combat.

Come on, man.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I gotta say, I've this thread has prompted me to actually look at the Cthulhu Dark rules. That's genius in four pages. Incredibly thematic, simple rules. I wouldn't at all say these are generic rules, they're very much aimed at emulated a specific feel of game and genre, but for that, absolutely brilliant. I love how Insanity is so integrated into the game -- it is the motivating factor!

Probably my least favorite part is the bit where another player can just decide that they want you to fail and challenge your action. As a concept, this isn't horrible, but I dislike how it's at no risk to the other player -- it doesn't feel like it has the heft and weight of the rest of the system. It feels... cheap? It's consequence free, too easy, and I'm not sure it's really needed to add to the drive of the game.