D&D Compatible Champion Class

[Valiantheart]

I don't know what you mean by magic reduction. Do you mean DR? I think you are forgetting that their DR goes away in the face of most weapons they'd be facing by the time they get it (thank god for 3.5's DR rules).

I was referring to spell resistance.

Just cause they use heavy armor doesn't make them Lumbering. I would imagine a racial champion on the elves or a champion of freedom being far from lumbering. Also, when you uphold a cause, you must be vigilent and observant. A defender of a place or person cannot adequately perform that function if they can't see what's going on around them.

Your logic seems nonsensical. Thats like arguing a fighter should have spot because they are always prepared for combat or a Paladin is always looking for evil doers. I made the change to bring the class more in line with the Paladin. It doesnt need spot to perform its basic function like a Rogue or Ranger would so I removed it.

Um.... Champions don't have spell casting ability. I don't know what you are talking about.

Which version of AU did you read. Here is a list of spells cast by the 6 provide causes: lesser glow globe, blinding light, call outsider, cloak of darkness, detect creature, revivification, finger of destruction, wave of death, dispel magic, open lock, bypass ward.

And two supporting quotes:

From the magic cause
"1st Level—Lesser Magic Touch (Sp): Once per day the champion
of magic can cast any 0-level or 1st-level simple or complex
spell, using her champion level as the caster level and
Charisma as her spellcasting key ability. The spell has verbal
components only. "

From Montes side column on designing new causes
"Use Charisma as a spellcasting key ability."

 

[Tywyll]

I was referring to spell resistance.

Ah, that makes sense.

Your logic seems nonsensical. Thats like arguing a fighter should have spot because they are always prepared for combat or a Paladin is always looking for evil doers. I made the change to bring the class more in line with the Paladin. It doesnt need spot to perform its basic function like a Rogue or Ranger would so I removed it.

Well, aside from being rude, your counter argument is faulty and incorrect. IMHO fighters should have spot, but that's another issue all together. As for Paladins, no, they don't need Spot to find evil doers. They have detect evil for that. Essentially God grants Paladin's the ability to find their enemies. Since a champion lacks supernatural detection ability, they do need Spot. Champions and Paladins aren't the same thing.

Also, the logic that something that can wear heavy armor must, by that fact alone, qualify as a "lumbering" steriotype is really out there. Would you say that Akashics are a Lumbering class because they are Prof in Heavy Armor and Martial weapons, and lack much in the way of movement oriented powers?

Which version of AU did you read. Here is a list of spells cast by the 6 provide causes: lesser glow globe, blinding light, call outsider, cloak of darkness, detect creature, revivification, finger of destruction, wave of death, dispel magic, open lock, bypass ward.

And two supporting quotes:

From the magic cause
"1st Level—Lesser Magic Touch (Sp): Once per day the champion
of magic can cast any 0-level or 1st-level simple or complex
spell, using her champion level as the caster level and
Charisma as her spellcasting key ability. The spell has verbal
components only. "

They don't have spellcasting ability, but spell-like abilities. Your description in the first post seems to indicate they cast spells, which they don't. They have spell-like abilities, a distinction made in the same side column you quote from, even though the text itself describes them as 'casting spells' (regardless of the Sp designation the abilities get). TMK, most Spell like abilities are Charisma based. Since Champions aren't necessarily called by a God, they don't necessarily need to rely on Wisdom as a casting/relational stat. Regardless, this isn't an issue of their power, which you seem to take umbrage with, but a complaint of flavor.

Anyway, that still doesn't address the fact that you've nerfed the class compared to the Paladin by reducing their boosting powers. Are you trying to make them take the place of Paladins in your campaign? That's fine, if that's what you want to do.

Another issue you are forgetting when nerfing their 'rage' is that the abilities they gain from it are 'enhancement' abilities which don't stack with buffs and items, while a barbarian rage does.

 

[Valiantheart]

Ah, that makes sense.

Well, aside from being rude, your counter argument is faulty and incorrect. IMHO fighters should have spot, but that's another issue all together. As for Paladins, no, they don't need Spot to find evil doers. They have detect evil for that. Essentially God grants Paladin's the ability to find their enemies. Since a champion lacks supernatural detection ability, they do need Spot. Champions and Paladins aren't the same thing.

Ah. Typical argumentative narcissism. My disagreeing with your argument is rude, but of course my argument is both 'faulty' and 'incorrect'.

So I was way off base for assuming you want evey class to have spot? But of course you think the fighter should have it. The only classes in the game that need spot are those that spend a great deal of their time lurking in the dark corners of the world searching for assassins and hidden enemies. Warriors get their training in fighter barracks or militant temples. They do not spend a lot of their time in the wilderness acting as scouts or hanging out with rogues. That is why fighters, barbarians, and Paladins dont have the spot skill.

But of course im sure you will say Champions dont have to be trained in blah blah blah. They get their powers from blah blah blah and they absolutely need spot so that they can blah blah. Please. Champions essentially perform the same function as a member of a militant church and I dont see clerics with the spot skill so that they can seek out infidels. The spot skill is very powerful and was designed to only be in the hands of a few select classes. Also, that is why there are champion causes. If a champions cause requires of him to lurk in those dark corners then it is easy to give THAT champion the spot skill to perform his duties. Thats what the "Special" ability is for.

Also, the logic that something that can wear heavy armor must, by that fact alone, qualify as a "lumbering" steriotype is really out there. Would you say that Akashics are a Lumbering class because they are Prof in Heavy Armor and Martial weapons, and lack much in the way of movement oriented powers?

Your are supporting your argument with a class that is non-core. This champion class is intended for use with a D&D world. No D&D core class with the Heavy Armor proficiency has the spot skill so I did not give it to the Champion either.

They don't have spellcasting ability, but spell-like abilities. Your description in the first post seems to indicate they cast spells, which they don't. They have spell-like abilities, a distinction made in the same side column you quote from, even though the text itself describes them as 'casting spells' (regardless of the Sp designation the abilities get). TMK, most Spell like abilities are Charisma based. Since Champions aren't necessarily called by a God, they don't necessarily need to rely on Wisdom as a casting/relational stat. Regardless, this isn't an issue of their power, which you seem to take umbrage with, but a complaint of flavor.

That is true but I decided to make my champions cast like clerics. Spell-like or spell, it doesnt really matter. They both are interruptable and the key ability score is only flavor.

Anyway, that still doesn't address the fact that you've nerfed the class compared to the Paladin by reducing their boosting powers. Are you trying to make them take the place of Paladins in your campaign? That's fine, if that's what you want to do.

That may be your opinion but many people think AU classes are much more powerful than the standard D&D classes. I reduced the Champions 'rages' but allowed him to use them and their call weapon/shield more times per day than they could before. And I think the four or five times I have said that this Champion is a potential Paladin replacement should be proof of my intentions with the class.

Another issue you are forgetting when nerfing their 'rage' is that the abilities they gain from it are 'enhancement' abilities which don't stack with buffs and items, while a barbarian rage does.

All designed to bring him more inline with standard D&D power levels.

 

[Nightfall]

Ah fellas. Let's keep it civil here. Alright. Take a deep breath. Count to 10.

 

[Tywyll]

Ah. Typical argumentative narcissism. My disagreeing with your argument is rude, but of course my argument is both 'faulty' and 'incorrect'.

Please, could you be any more full of your self?
Your commentary and tone, much like now, was rude, not your disagreeing with me. And that has nothing to do with how faulty and incorrect your conclusions were.

So I was way off base for assuming you want evey class to have spot?

Yeah, pretty much so.

But of course you think the fighter should have it. The only classes in the game that need spot are those that spend a great deal of their time lurking in the dark corners of the world searching for assassins and hidden enemies. Warriors get their training in fighter barracks or militant temples. They do not spend a lot of their time in the wilderness acting as scouts or hanging out with rogues. That is why fighters, barbarians, and Paladins dont have the spot skill.

Actually, there is no reason to assume much about the fighters. As the most variable class in Core rules, Fighters are supposed to represent all different kinds of concepts, from the heavily armored tank to the swashbuckler, to the non-mystic martial artists, to the king's guards. Whether the class succeeds at this endeavor is irrelavent, but since its can represent concepts beyond your limited options, a justifiable and defendable argument could be made for them having most skills, under the right situations.

Furthermore, as the only class that spends a good time of its appreticeship (using your fighter barracks/militant temples/army life example) on sentry duty, dnd's lack of granting spot to fighters can only lead one to imagine how poorly defended most camps and bases are. As body guards are the ones that defend the nobility and powerful of any world, fighters are the ones who spend the MOST time looking for assassins and hidden enemies.

But, you are nitpicking an offhand remark to avoid the real thrust of the conversation. I would like to return to a comment you made earlier:

I removed Spot because I saw no reason to give a lumbering knight a good spot skill when it is so useful and a skill of few classes...and the paladin doesnt have or need it.

So, um, you are removing the skill because its so useful, and paladin's don't need it? Its so useful....so you are taking it away? Where is the logic?

But of course im sure you will say Champions dont have to be trained in blah blah blah. They get their powers from blah blah blah and they absolutely need spot so that they can blah blah. Please. Champions essentially perform the same function as a member of a militant church and I dont see clerics with the spot skill so that they can seek out infidels. The spot skill is very powerful and was designed to only be in the hands of a few select classes. Also, that is why there are champion causes. If a champions cause requires of him to lurk in those dark corners then it is easy to give THAT champion the spot skill to perform his duties. Thats what the "Special" ability is for.

So you are rude AND psychic?

I love that you keep going off on what was intended by the designers of DnD. This class doesn't have spot because blah and this class has it because of blah. Never mind the fact that Monte Cook actually was a designer of 3rd edition so he probably has good reason for doing what he did. Not that I agree with all his choices or anything, but a class skill doesn't seem that worth nitpicking.

As for what functions they perform.... please. Since the causes are so wide and varied, and since the rules for creating new causes is a part of the class, trying to equate them to paladins or clerics is simply weak. Furthermore, with the text write up as given, they serve multitudes of functions and causes beyond that having anything to do with religion or churches.

This disagreement goes back in part I think to you nerfing the class down to making them a loner class (losing the heartening cry, reducing the 50% critical reduction ability granted to allies, etc). You are trying to shoehorn them into a role defined by another class rather then seeing them for what they are and can be.

Your are supporting your argument with a class that is non-core. This champion class is intended for use with a D&D world. No D&D core class with the Heavy Armor proficiency has the spot skill so I did not give it to the Champion either.

And we are arguing about converting a non-core class to core. YOu still didn't answer the question: if you brought over akashics would you limite them so arbitraily? Oh, you have Heavy Armor Prof, so you can't take X, Y, and Z?

That is true but I decided to make my champions cast like clerics. Spell-like or spell, it doesnt really matter. They both are interruptable and the key ability score is only flavor.

That's fine. Unneccesary in my opinion, but no big deal either way.

That may be your opinion but many people think AU classes are much more powerful than the standard D&D classes. I reduced the Champions 'rages' but allowed him to use them and their call weapon/shield more times per day than they could before. And I think the four or five times I have said that this Champion is a potential Paladin replacement should be proof of my intentions with the class.

Logical fallacy, appealing to outside support. It doesn't validate your opinion any more or less then mine.

When I got the book, I thought the same thing, specifically about the casting classes. Having now played many different classes from AU at many different levels, I have found that many are much weaker then their core equivalents (specifically the casters).

As it is, with their 'rage' being an enhancement bonus (topping out with you at +6 at high level) by the time they can do it, they should already have access to items that grant them said bonus if not better. At least as written the +8 enhancement bonus as the top end is 2 better then the item that the high level Champion undoubtedly possesses already. Since you see the Champion as lumbering fighter types, we must assume that they will have +6 X of Strength and probably Charisma as well, at top end. So now they have an ability that grants them DR and Fast Healing, basically, and that's about all. Not to say the DR isn't worthwhile, but you have made their top end power the equivalent of having the party wizard cast Stoneskin and a Druid hit them with X Regeneration spell.

Wheeeee.....

We are coming at this disagreement in two different directions. You didn't originally post this as: A better Core Champion that will replace the Paladin. I would have understood your viewpoint from the beginning. Disagreed with needing to make such a shoehorning change, but understood the limited role you wanted the class to perform. I am coming at it from the standpoint of the class as it was intended, a not-necessarily-religious figure that fights for a cause.

Regardless, my opinion still stands: with the bonuses being enhancement, and the benefits being reduced in numerical value, the class is too weak.

 

[Tywyll]

You are right Nightfall...
We should keep it civil. My tone was a bit harsh in my last response, but I don't appreciate being talked down to by someone who I am trying to offer constructive criticism to.

 

[Valiantheart]

You are right Nightfall...
We should keep it civil. My tone was a bit harsh in my last response, but I don't appreciate being talked down to by someone who I am trying to offer constructive criticism to.

I apologize Tywyll I took things too far and am prepared to let the argument drop.

So without further ado:

The War Cause

War
This champion seeks to promote and maintain the arts of war. A champion of war might be a mercenary, a general or an elite soldier. He might be an honorable soldier seeking to end wars quickly in order to protect the innocent, he may seek to travel from kingdom to kingdom instigating bloody, endless battles, he may instruct one side or the other on the proper strategies for a siege or flanking maneuver, or he may simply fight because that is what he does best.
The champion of war often wears the symbol of war or its instruments such as a weapon, armor, or bloody battlefield.

Special: The champion of war can use any spell completion or spell-trigger magic item involving a spell from the War domain and their choice of one of the following: Healing, Destruction, or Strength domains. He has Intimidate as a class skill.
.
1st Level – War Bond(Su): When a champion chooses a side in a war or battle to champion he gains a +1 circumstance bonus to attack and damage rolls, saving throws, and checks whenever he is involved in a skirmish against opponents of his side.
5th Level – Martial Prowess (Su): The champion of war receives a +4 bonus to any knowledge check concerning an aspect of war and to any craft check involving the fabrication of a war implement.
10th Level – Battle Field Attrition (Su): When the champion of war uses his Call Weapon ability the weapon receives the wounding property in addition to its other abilities.
15th Level - War Machine (Ex): The champion of war is capable of using a two-handed martial weapon of his size category one-handed, a one-handed weapon of one size category larger one-handed, or a two-handed weapon one size category larger than himself two-handed with no penalties.
20th Level – Eternal War (Su): Once per week, if the champion of war is reduced below 0 hit points while in battle he does not die. Instead he instantly receives a Heal spell, he shakes off all incapacitating ability draining effects, fatigue effects and spell effects and takes on the form of the Avatar. Taking on the Avatar this way does not count against his daily allotment and he takes on the form even if has used all of his form for that day. If he survives the engagement he is fatigued until he can receive at least 8 hours of rest.

 

[Valiantheart]

As it is, with their 'rage' being an enhancement bonus (topping out with you at +6 at high level) by the time they can do it, they should already have access to items that grant them said bonus if not better. At least as written the +8 enhancement bonus as the top end is 2 better then the item that the high level Champion undoubtedly possesses already. Since you see the Champion as lumbering fighter types, we must assume that they will have +6 X of Strength and probably Charisma as well, at top end. So now they have an ability that grants them DR and Fast Healing, basically, and that's about all. Not to say the DR isn't worthwhile, but you have made their top end power the equivalent of having the party wizard cast Stoneskin and a Druid hit them with X Regeneration spell.

That is a good point. Nothing would be incorrect about making it a temporary inherent bonus though would it? That would seem to correct most of the deficiency you see?

 

[Valiantheart]

I got to thinking about Monte's and my champion's version and something really bothers me about the Call Shield ability. It seems to shoehorn the class into the roll of knight and greatly limits the players weapon choices. You can basically not take any two-handed weapons because you will be giving up one of your best abilities.

So I thought instead of a call shield ability I would change it to an Empower Armor ability instead.

It works essentially the same except it enhances the Champions armor instead of calling a shield.

Empower Armor (Sp): A 2nd-level or higher champion can empower any armor or clothing he is wearing. The armor takes on the blazing symbol of the champion’s cause and it receives a +1 enhancement bonus, plus an additional +1 enhancement bonus for every 5 level of the champions. This armor can be empowered at will for up to one minute per Champion level. Always round the time the shield is used up to the next minute. Example: Armor empowered and used for only 4 rounds still counts as one minute of the Champion’s total time that day.
Starting at 11th level, the armor negates 50 percent of the criticals the champion might suffer. From 18th level on, this critical negation percentage increases to 100%.


Any comments?

 

[TheUber]

ValientHeart, can I post this prestige class on my site?
http://uberDDragons.cjb.net