Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Enkhidu said:
That has more of a ring to it.
I also just realized that in 1e, Wizards were about the only class with significant power advancement beyond 13th.
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[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"
- Thread starter Wulf Ratbane
- Start date
That has more of a ring to it.
I also just realized that in 1e, Wizards were about the only class with significant power advancement beyond 13th.
Victim
First Post
I don't think the problem is HP. HP means you won't die quickly vs weak attacks, but you still can lose. Or, if healing is a non trivial problem, then you can win but take problematic amounts of damage. AC or DR are the real culprit, once characters have reached enough HP that a lucky shot or two isn't crippling - which most characters have at the mid levels we're discussing, unless they're templated or something. But those stats determine whether or not foes can feasibly hurt the character.
VirgilCaine
First Post
Gumby said:
How in the Nine Hells are your PCs going to get a view of the inner sanctum of an evil temple...that isn't under Forbiddance?
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Forbiddance doesn't get enough publicity.VirgilCaine said:
I would be surprised if most published adventures even mention it.
RangerWickett
Legend
Wulf Ratbane said:
Thanks for reminding me, Wulf. As we speak I'm slotting that into the GenCon game I'll be running.
I'm loving this topic...
From my perspective, to Wulf and Glassjaw there's a VERY important question we need to know the answer to first.
How much do you want/are you willing to change the game?
Even something as simple as "can't go more than one level in a arcane/divine casting class per two levels" has profound ramifications to all kinds of villians, encounters, treasures, magic item values, and a sweeping impact to the CR/EL system. (I love the idea, btw.)
I also concur that you've nailed a few of the key components of "game changers":
1) Ability to defy current laws of physics - shift planes, teleport, fly, levitate, etc.
2) Ability to define absolute truth - commune, divination, locate, irreconilably high skills
3) Ability to dismantle a character in one blow - poison, petrification, paralysis, unconsciousness, death
4) Ability to achieve absolutes - mordenkainen's, immunities, anti-, etc.
These are great examples of the constraints of high level 3.x D&D. In addition, I would add to that list:
1) Complexity of determining actions
2) Complexity of determining modifiers
3) Complexity of determining resolutions
From my perspective, to Wulf and Glassjaw there's a VERY important question we need to know the answer to first.
How much do you want/are you willing to change the game?
Even something as simple as "can't go more than one level in a arcane/divine casting class per two levels" has profound ramifications to all kinds of villians, encounters, treasures, magic item values, and a sweeping impact to the CR/EL system. (I love the idea, btw.)
I also concur that you've nailed a few of the key components of "game changers":
1) Ability to defy current laws of physics - shift planes, teleport, fly, levitate, etc.
2) Ability to define absolute truth - commune, divination, locate, irreconilably high skills
3) Ability to dismantle a character in one blow - poison, petrification, paralysis, unconsciousness, death
4) Ability to achieve absolutes - mordenkainen's, immunities, anti-, etc.
These are great examples of the constraints of high level 3.x D&D. In addition, I would add to that list:
1) Complexity of determining actions
2) Complexity of determining modifiers
3) Complexity of determining resolutions
Simplest Changes
Very different levels of impact can be had on the game. If you want to try to save your 3.x game and expand your sweet spot, consider the following:
1) Give the players something to focus on from 10th to 20th that is NOT character development - ie, reputation, prestige, a stronghold, a dynasty, a legacy - in doing so, reduce the "scope" of your game by an enormous magnitude...do NOT make it a requirement to go to plane-hopping madness to encounter challenges and be challenged.
2) Using the "arms race" approach, for every action you must develop and implement an equal and more powerful reaction. As it relates to the list of "issues" posted above, your higher level opponents and players must have access to effective counter measures:
a) defy physics - high level area spells and effects that prevent effects
b) divine truth - high level skills, spells, abilities, and tactics that prevent this from happening (think high level mob bosses)
c) dismantle in one blow - ready access to life saving measures that negate these one-shot kill effects (see Deathguard from 2nd Edition)
d) absolutes - this one is a tough one to get around, however, I'd recommend feats and abilities that allow you to reduce immunities to high resistances
Doing these things will "change" your game, but extend your sweet spot. It will require some work on your part and your players, but will offer a richer, more rewarding game for longer. If you'd like some more specific details, I've done some of all of the above, and run two campaigns using/playtesting some ideas I've listed here.
Very different levels of impact can be had on the game. If you want to try to save your 3.x game and expand your sweet spot, consider the following:
1) Give the players something to focus on from 10th to 20th that is NOT character development - ie, reputation, prestige, a stronghold, a dynasty, a legacy - in doing so, reduce the "scope" of your game by an enormous magnitude...do NOT make it a requirement to go to plane-hopping madness to encounter challenges and be challenged.
2) Using the "arms race" approach, for every action you must develop and implement an equal and more powerful reaction. As it relates to the list of "issues" posted above, your higher level opponents and players must have access to effective counter measures:
a) defy physics - high level area spells and effects that prevent effects
b) divine truth - high level skills, spells, abilities, and tactics that prevent this from happening (think high level mob bosses)
c) dismantle in one blow - ready access to life saving measures that negate these one-shot kill effects (see Deathguard from 2nd Edition)
d) absolutes - this one is a tough one to get around, however, I'd recommend feats and abilities that allow you to reduce immunities to high resistances
Doing these things will "change" your game, but extend your sweet spot. It will require some work on your part and your players, but will offer a richer, more rewarding game for longer. If you'd like some more specific details, I've done some of all of the above, and run two campaigns using/playtesting some ideas I've listed here.
4ed recommendations
To truly improve the core mechanics behind the game, and change the design with an eye towards improving gameplay and expanding the sweet spot for all of the "common man" gamists out there, I'd recommend the following:
All physics defying should be greatly increased in cost (higher levels), and reduced in effect (less duration, less confidence, less versatility).
All "information" gathering should become significantly less absolute and more on the 3.x developed method of: four levels of information that can be gained...(DC15, 20, 25, 35)
There should be very, very low (5% - 10% per campaign) chance of an instant character death effect in the game.
Rid the game of all absolutes.
In addition, to truly expand the sweet spot you need to:
Make all actions at all levels reserved to no more than two decisions and one die roll, period.
Combine "conditions" into levels of condition as demonstrated by each of the following categories that shape each combat action:
CONFIDENCE (MORALE+PREPAREDNESS)
READINESS (ABILITY+BELIEF)
AWARENESS (CONSCIOUS+SENSE)
CAPABILITY (OBSTACLE+ENGAGEMENT)
ADVANTAGE (ENVIRONMENT+SUPPORT)
TACTICS (MOVEMENT+ACTION)
TALENT (EQUIPMENT+SKILL)
Everything in the game can be rolled up into things that simply shift these 7 categories up or down that scale, and that ultimately would determine the outcome of each tactical decision (along with some random component). This may be hard to understand without further explanation, but if you've ever played high level gaming, you will appreciate and understand that building a game where all skills, abilities, actions, environments, spells, feats, talents, all relate to one of 35 to 70 very specific conditions, and very clearly how they interact with each other is far superior to what we have today.
Doing these two things would solve all the problems of the existing high level game and make the sweet spot capable of growing to 20th level (easily) and possibily well beyond.
It will also take a complete fundamental re-write/overhaul of the entire engine that runs the game.
While you're in there tinkering, if I might add, I'd throw in one more pretty critical recommendation. I think the focus of the game (particularly at higher levels) would be FAR better served limiting the amount "combat" cookies you get, and supplementing them instead with what I'll call "legacy" cookies. What makes a character immortal in this fantastic game we play? The lengths by which their accomplishments can be measured. There is no means (perhaps beyond gold pieces acquired), to measure such deeds today, outside of combat. As anyone who has been a manager knows, having the resources, and doing something worthwhile with them is half the challenge, and so it should be for these characters. An entire game-subsystem could and should be developed around wealth, property, resources, knowledge, technological advancement, reputation, influence, allies, followers, strongholds, and kingdoms. Think Settlers of Catan, Age of Empires, etc.
Now we're talking about a complete different "range" both in time and in "class levels" for a sweet spot to this fine brand.
To truly improve the core mechanics behind the game, and change the design with an eye towards improving gameplay and expanding the sweet spot for all of the "common man" gamists out there, I'd recommend the following:
All physics defying should be greatly increased in cost (higher levels), and reduced in effect (less duration, less confidence, less versatility).
All "information" gathering should become significantly less absolute and more on the 3.x developed method of: four levels of information that can be gained...(DC15, 20, 25, 35)
There should be very, very low (5% - 10% per campaign) chance of an instant character death effect in the game.
Rid the game of all absolutes.
In addition, to truly expand the sweet spot you need to:
Make all actions at all levels reserved to no more than two decisions and one die roll, period.
Combine "conditions" into levels of condition as demonstrated by each of the following categories that shape each combat action:
CONFIDENCE (MORALE+PREPAREDNESS)
READINESS (ABILITY+BELIEF)
AWARENESS (CONSCIOUS+SENSE)
CAPABILITY (OBSTACLE+ENGAGEMENT)
ADVANTAGE (ENVIRONMENT+SUPPORT)
TACTICS (MOVEMENT+ACTION)
TALENT (EQUIPMENT+SKILL)
Everything in the game can be rolled up into things that simply shift these 7 categories up or down that scale, and that ultimately would determine the outcome of each tactical decision (along with some random component). This may be hard to understand without further explanation, but if you've ever played high level gaming, you will appreciate and understand that building a game where all skills, abilities, actions, environments, spells, feats, talents, all relate to one of 35 to 70 very specific conditions, and very clearly how they interact with each other is far superior to what we have today.
Doing these two things would solve all the problems of the existing high level game and make the sweet spot capable of growing to 20th level (easily) and possibily well beyond.
It will also take a complete fundamental re-write/overhaul of the entire engine that runs the game.
While you're in there tinkering, if I might add, I'd throw in one more pretty critical recommendation. I think the focus of the game (particularly at higher levels) would be FAR better served limiting the amount "combat" cookies you get, and supplementing them instead with what I'll call "legacy" cookies. What makes a character immortal in this fantastic game we play? The lengths by which their accomplishments can be measured. There is no means (perhaps beyond gold pieces acquired), to measure such deeds today, outside of combat. As anyone who has been a manager knows, having the resources, and doing something worthwhile with them is half the challenge, and so it should be for these characters. An entire game-subsystem could and should be developed around wealth, property, resources, knowledge, technological advancement, reputation, influence, allies, followers, strongholds, and kingdoms. Think Settlers of Catan, Age of Empires, etc.
Now we're talking about a complete different "range" both in time and in "class levels" for a sweet spot to this fine brand.
green slime
First Post
Address this through tighter control of which modifiers are available, have a stricter control of what provides which kind of modifier, and keep them low. (basically fewer modifiers, lower numbers, logical progression).
?? You can do this already?? Levels add numbers, while roleplaying provides other non-numeric benefits: associates, friends, land, deeds, titles, prestige. Do we need to have this broken down into rules? Surely that is counter to what you are trying to achieve?
See point 1 above
See point 1 above.
Basically, I made certain changes IMC, but I'm not certain about which spells and powers you think are campaign-changing. The presence of everburning torches changes the flavour of a campaign.
Anyhow I made the following changes:
Removed or drastically altered all raise dead type spells.
Teleport spells are reduced in range, so it doesn't provide cross-continental travel.
There are spells to counter teleport, and so it isn't such a mundane exercise.
Shadow walk is now utilised (dangerous as it is), as are boats.
Fly and invisibility spells are drastically increased in spell level.
Removed the Ethereal plane.
Made it much more difficult to attain bonuses to skills via magic. DnD as is reduces the rogue to a sneak attack machine.
Reduced the number of spells providing bonuses overall, and made them more logical, and less stacking.
I made these changes because, I wanted to have a campaign where traditionally fantastic elements still remained achievable, (flight, invisibility, teleportation), and yet were not commonplace.
The basic problem ("without being forced to deal with certain "campaign-changing" spells, powers, abilities") being highly subjective, and as people's solutions vary wildly, we are left with just that: being forced to deal with camapaign-changing spells. Just because these spells are so very powerful, and affect people's understanding of the campaign world. Yet no one can agree on just how powerful, just what limitation, just how common, they should be.
