[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

[Wulf Ratbane]

If that is the case perhaps the game could benefit from logical caps? For example 10 BAB, 10 Caster levels, 10 ranks in a skill.

That's what I have been considering.

But it's lazy. Not necessarily any easier or lazier than just removing problematic spells or just pulling the plug on the campaign around 10th level.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'd just like to chime in as one of the dissenters that 10th level is somehow outside the sweetspot. I've never had a problem with teleport, commune, raise dead or plane shift ruining my game.

Outside the parameters of this thread... however...

My current game has a party of 6 28th level characters . . .

Some folks have a hard time letting go. It's why we have fanfic.

This thread should really be called Preserving the "Small World" Campaign.

That's an astute observation. It's more than that-- there are complaints regarding DCs and complexity of play to address, but those are much more readily addressed, I admit, than the "small world" feel.

I disagree that this is in any way the sweet spot for D&D. It is just the sweet spot for Wulf Ratbane (and friends).

Gosh, I hope not. If everyone who agreed with me was my friend-- given that I'm so very often right-- it would cost me a bundle in birthday cards.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I didn't even get Snark(tm) with my Grim Tales order; I'm not holding my breath for a birthday card.

You can have "Big World" without teleport, raise dead, etc. Harder to have 'Small World' with them, though it's possible with some tweaking.

The problem isn't the spells, it's their ready availability to PCs without cost or consequence.

 

[jmucchiello]

And at high levels, you'll typically rack up a lot of those big bumps-- not just skills, either, but also your BAB, your AC, your saving throws, etc. When they exceed +20, then the panoply of "fixed DC tasks" can become either automatic failures or automatic successes.

This means to me that the fixed DC tasks should not be fixed. Or they are so beneath a hero's notice that of course he always succeeds. The hero shouldn't need to pick a weak lock after a certain level. It isn't heroic. OTOH, things like diplomacy and tumble should not have fixed DCs. It should not be just as easy for a 1st level rogue to tumble past an orc to avoid an AoO as it is for the same rogue to tumble past Orcus to avoid an AoO. Likewise, making peasents "friendly" through diplomacy should be easier than making Orcus "friendly". This is not a flaw in advancement, it is a flaw in the RAW. The RAW purports to be open ended for all levels of play. Thus all DCs should be opposed rolls or set based on the opponent in some way. The only place fixed DCs should exist is in places were as the characters gain in power success SHOULD become automatic.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I didn't even get Snark(tm) with my Grim Tales order; I'm not holding my breath for a birthday card.

Well maybe you should try being a little more compliant for a change. You know. When it counts.

This means to me that the fixed DC tasks should not be fixed. Or they are so beneath a hero's notice that of course he always succeeds. The hero shouldn't need to pick a weak lock after a certain level. It isn't heroic.

But at the same time, random locks shouldn't suddenly skyrocket to DC45 just because the normal "high quality" DC30 lock is beneath contempt for the hero. It isn't realistic.

OTOH, things like diplomacy and tumble should not have fixed DCs. It should not be just as easy for a 1st level rogue to tumble past an orc to avoid an AoO as it is for the same rogue to tumble past Orcus to avoid an AoO.

You've zeroed in on a problem with Tumble and Diplomacy that has long ago been corrected by the player base. I don't know many people who still use unopposed checks for either of these skills.

Thus all DCs should be opposed rolls or set based on the opponent in some way.

Whenever possible and practical, I agree.

If I really needed to challenge the party rogue with a DC45 lock, for example, and it was integral to the adventure-- penetrating a gnomish craftsman's lair, perhaps-- then I might set the DC based on the gnomish nemesis' Craft check.

That there exist DC20, DC30, DC35 locks really just means these are typical "craft" DCs achieved by locksmiths of varying skill.

But if I don't cap the Open Locks skill somehow, then eventually I reach one of two points:

1) Locks are made obsolete as a dramatic obstacle.

2) By coincidence, the heroes seem to tackle dungeons full of mastercrafted locks.

#2 is an instance of the world changing to accomodate the hero's existance-- almost the very antithesis of verisimilitude.

 

[jmucchiello]

The problem isn't the spells, it's their ready availability to PCs without cost or consequence.

And for some people this is not a problem at all.

They do have cost/consequence (mostly)
Raise dead: It's only as easy to cast as it is to find diamond dust.
Commune: I don't nerf commune but I also tend to litter my campaigns with childish, self-centered, know-little, ancient-Greek-style gods. Sure, commune will get you truthful answers but the gods don't have all the answers and so sometimes you just get the gods true opinion on the matter.
Plane Shift: Like raise dead, they need to find these tuning forks. Make them rare and PS is rare.
Teleport: I admit, it would be nice if the RAW had more anti-teleport spells besides the 8th level dimension lock.

 

[jmucchiello]

But if I don't cap the Open Locks skill somehow, then eventually I reach one of two points:

1) Locks are made obsolete as a dramatic obstacle.

Bingo. You are correct, sir. Just like road ambushes are meaningless when you can fly, and hide is meaningless when you can be invisible, and walls become obsolete when you can teleport, and hunting for food is meaningless when you have heroes' feast, and find the path makes tracking useless, and on and on. This is the standard complaint made by "low-magic" types. You claim not to be one, but I think you are. You want to play a certain style of campaign that is adversely affected by certain spells. The list of problem spells is similar to the low-magic type complaints (they usually throw in invisibility and fly).

(I'm not saying this in any way to belittle you or anyone else. There's nothing wrong with preferring low magic. Different styles of play are good. But at some point I think "you" should admit that you have a problem with the default magic level of D&D. And when I say you here I'm not referring to any specific poster. Just those that agree with Wulf )

Picking a lock is neither heroic nor dramatic. Locks should be made obsolete as a dramatic obstacle. Tell me of a legendary story where a lock gets picked?

As players advance, older story templates are cast aside for new ones. Murder mysteries are hosed at 5th level when speak with dead exists. General mysteries go away with divination at 7th level and true seeing drives the nail into the coffin. Travelling the roads from town to town disappears with teleport. Leomunds secure shelter also puts a dent in travel stories. This is just how D&D is. It's how it always was. I played many 1e/2e games into the upper teens levels because that was where the fun spells were.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

This is the standard complaint made by "low-magic" types. You claim not to be one, but I think you are.

I claim not to be a low-magic type? I am sure that would come as a surprise to all the folks who purchased Grim Tales.

I have said that this thread that this is not specifically a low-magic complaint, and it's not.

But at some point I think "you" should admit that you have a problem with the default magic level of D&D.

And as I said above, I don't have a problem with the default magic level of D&D up through the sweet spot. And that's why you have not seen any complaint about invisibility or fly, or the availability of magic items, or alternate spell systems like "spell burn" and so on.

I've completed my low-magic paean, quite successfully if I say so myself. (I am sure my friends will agree.) This thread isn't about that.

Picking a lock is neither heroic nor dramatic. Locks should be made obsolete as a dramatic obstacle. Tell me of a legendary story where a lock gets picked?

The Fellowship of the Ring.

You know, if I had to pick something iconic and genre-defining.

But you missed the point. I mean "dramatic obstacle" in the sense of "not a forgone conclusion."

As players advance, older story templates are cast aside for new ones. Murder mysteries are hosed at 5th level when speak with dead exists. General mysteries go away with divination at 7th level and true seeing drives the nail into the coffin. Travelling the roads from town to town disappears with teleport. Leomunds secure shelter also puts a dent in travel stories. This is just how D&D is. It's how it always was.

You obviously haven't been playing it as a Gamist experience. Since the beginning of the thread we've had folks chiming in on how simple it is to fix this problem with D&D if we just change the focus away from the broken mechanics and concentrate on story, and I've been saying all along that the point of the design exercise is to fix it within 3rd edition's decidedly Gamist framework.

You've just added another post suggesting to "tell different kinds of stories."

We are not speaking the same language.

 

[A'koss]

I think to achieve what you're looking for it just boils down to be willing to push the numbers around (compressing the disparities across the board) and generating your own spell lists to accomodate.

Some suggestions for flattening the differences out...

1. Everyone gets +1 to each ability score every X levels. Dispense with stat boosting magic altogther short of minor/major artifacts. Because of this, X can be a fairly low number (every 3 or even 2 levels). Everyone gets a frequent cookie, disparities are under control.

2. Class based Defense bonus, Armor to DR. Keep the progressions between the classes nice and narrow and all magical enhancements to AC overlap.

3. Tighten up the BAB progressions a little as well as Saves. If you think too many attacks are being made per round, I was toying with the idea once of having a single BAB value for every character. You can make a single attack at this value or make multiple attacks by reducing the BAB by say... 4 for each additional attack. So you could make one attack at BAB +20, or two attacks at +16 each, or three attacks at +12 each, etc. Most won't risk more than a couple attacks per round unless they are very confident (vs mooks for example) and being able to clean them up quickly isn't a bad thing either.

4. Create your own spell list. You know what spells can potentially wreak havok on setting - clean 'em up, bump them up and remove them as you see fit. Sometimes just upping the casting times will prevent a lot of abuse. If teleport took an hour to cast (requiring a freshly prepared magical circle), then you don't have to worry about it's effects in combat. Further, you could add that teleport turns you into a great big glowing ball of light which you can see streaking across the sky towards it's destination. And if major divinations could only be cast on the holy days of your god (1/2 months say or only 1 commune per solstice) that will prevent a lot of abuse too.

Just my 2 bits.

 

[A'koss]

Just throwing some more ideas into the wind...

4. Don't ban resurrection, but have it at a cost. No stat or level penalties. You are now alive only because you are infused with divine energy. A finite supply of divine energy which you will burn out.

5. Skill checks: If there is magic and 240 HP characters in the world then don't be afraid of allowing skills to eventually transcend the mundane. PCs accumulate power in a way that quickly elevates them into "beyond mortal" status - accept it. All mortals have the spark of the divine that can be fanned with dedication (gaining levels). Perhaps allow classes to have more skill points, dump the cross-class skils but allow the skill maestros have a higher limit (4 or 5 ranks more perhaps) and to have access to "transcending the mundane" abilities with skills as they hit the higher levels that other classes cannot hope to accomplish.